A Method I’ve Used to Eliminate Bad Tech Hires • Hacker News Board

Re: A Method I’ve Used to Eliminate Bad Tech Hires

#261

Post by m_mueller » Thu, Nov 10, 2016, 8:43 AM UTC

chmike wrote: post #234

m_mueller wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Furthermore, in German we have a saying: "Where there is no judge, there's no executioner". Maybe this attitude is more popular in Switzerland than in Germany, but the basic meaning is: don't sweat the legality of small exchanges that (a) don't affect anyone negatively and (b) aren't in some government agency's crosshair. That being said, your mileage in different legal systems may vary - in our civil law system it's…

USA is kind of special regarding legality handling. An unhappy candidate my find legal arguments to complain. In Europe, states may be unhappy that work has been done without tax payment. This payment looks like easy money for cheaters who would copy ready made solutions or ask friends for help. I'm not convinced, but this is indeed how things should be done in an ideal world. I guess we could also ask candidates to…

> In Europe, states may be unhappy that work has been done without tax payment.

Well, it's a good thing we have (now domestic only) banking secrecy in Switzerland, for exactly these reasons. You only get into trouble when your livelihood doesn't make sense from what you earn and own - as long as you pay what's generally considered a 'fair' amount of tax, no-one will blink an eye and come after your documentation. And even if for some reason the government finds out, all that will happen is a penalty tax ranging from 20 to 300% of the missed revenue, usually 100%. There is an explicit difference between tax fraud (document forgery, which could mean jail) and tax evasion (when you 'forgot' to declare something, which leads to above penalty.

Overall, the system is set up so that the government can't abuse its asymmetric power over individuals, instead keeping it as close as possible to an 'employee' of the people.

Re: A Method I’ve Used to Eliminate Bad Tech Hires

#262

Post by amgin3 » Thu, Nov 10, 2016, 8:45 AM UTC

No company is going to pay someone for an interview project assignment when they know they could easily make candidates jump through hoops for free.

Re: A Method I’ve Used to Eliminate Bad Tech Hires

#263

Post by elcct » Thu, Nov 10, 2016, 8:46 AM UTC

throwaway4job wrote: post #59

zachd1_618 wrote: post #49

This. 100% this. As many others are saying, I find that this is the most comfortable way for me as an interviewee to demonstrate that I do in fact know what I'm talking about. Put me in front of a room full of people and a whiteboard and throw something at me, and I'll freeze. Freezing in that situation and being a bad engineer are wholly separate things. Anecdotally, when I get one of these problems, I spent 20 minu…

This isn't a viable approach for much of the hiring pool, as a majority of working engineers have contracts which explicitly forbid work for contract for other employers. As such, if you hire any of those, you're hiring somebody with a proven willingness to ignore their contract, which is a strong anti-pattern.

I think person who is either very well compensated for that or with slave mentality would sign such a contract. Either way I don't think those people are a target group of this post.

Re: A Method I’ve Used to Eliminate Bad Tech Hires

#264

Post by z3t4 » Thu, Nov 10, 2016, 8:49 AM UTC

zachd1_618 wrote: post #49

This. 100% this. As many others are saying, I find that this is the most comfortable way for me as an interviewee to demonstrate that I do in fact know what I'm talking about. Put me in front of a room full of people and a whiteboard and throw something at me, and I'll freeze. Freezing in that situation and being a bad engineer are wholly separate things. Anecdotally, when I get one of these problems, I spent 20 minu…

There's a big difference acting on instinct and heuristics, versus actually thinking witch is very slow.

Re: A Method I’ve Used to Eliminate Bad Tech Hires

#265

Post by maccard » Thu, Nov 10, 2016, 8:51 AM UTC

deckar01 wrote: post #72

ahh wrote: post #10

This system is interesting but has a crucial flaw: I legally can't take part. I have a job now, which claims ownership over any tech-related IP I create. There are processes for getting exceptions, but a) you won't get them for actual job-related things b) I'm not asking Google for an exception so I can interview somewhere else. This is true for nearly anyone with a standard SV job. So if you're willing to restrict y…

[Ask HN] Does my company have IP rights to the stuff I do in my spare time? > California ... has a law on the books that generally prohibits employers, on public policy grounds, from making claims to IP generated by employees working on their own time and using their own resources. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2208056

If you're being sued by your employer for breaching a moonlighting agreement, you've already lost. It doesn't matter whether you win or not.

Re: A Method I’ve Used to Eliminate Bad Tech Hires

#266

Post by a_imho » Thu, Nov 10, 2016, 8:54 AM UTC

Problem is, many companies are only playing interviews.

When you want to hire people who gets the job done it is no harder than:

1. Please tell me about a project you have done, a sw book you read, a hard bug you solved, really anything you like about computing etc.

2.a (This guy seems smart) Let's discuss compensation and you can start your probation period asap.

2.b (This guy is not smart nor passionate) Thank you for coming in, but we don't want to hire you.

edit: I used this method with great success, imo programming exercises are just an indirection that only adds noise and loosely correlates with on the job performance anyway

Re: A Method I’ve Used to Eliminate Bad Tech Hires

#267

Post by z3t4 » Thu, Nov 10, 2016, 8:55 AM UTC

deepGem wrote: post #237

shandor wrote: post #233

This seems like a pretty popular take on the interview process here on HN. However, there's one pretty glaring flaw that I've never seen discussed: if the interviewee can take the problem home, what prevents them setting up a hackathon with their friends at their place, and making the interview problem a team effort? A couple of knowledgeable friends can do wonders, and if you also prep with them a little you can pro…

One view of this behaviour is cheating, another view is hustle. I mean, if you could arrange a hackathon to solve an interview question - you are hired my friend :)

I would also hire the dude on the spot, and probably his/her friends too.

Re: A Method I’ve Used to Eliminate Bad Tech Hires

#268

Post by LoSboccacc » Thu, Nov 10, 2016, 9:04 AM UTC

blowski wrote: post #244

jobu wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The other problem is that when you pay them you generate all sorts of nightmarish legal liabilities. I was wondering about the tax and legal implications around paying someone for an interview challenge as well. The overall idea seems fantastic, but paying or receiving money for an interview coding challenge is a little weird.

Tax authorities usually don't care about a one-off small payment.

where I live you are allowed to gain up to 5k year for 'hobby' projects that you do on the side.

Re: A Method I’ve Used to Eliminate Bad Tech Hires

#269

Post by deepaksurti » Thu, Nov 10, 2016, 9:07 AM UTC

>> They refuse to do the project because “someone will hire me without it”.

This is wrong in certain cases. The candidate may have significant contribution to an open source project or may have shipped an open source project as an owner.

Why should that candidate not refuse? You already have the code in front of you. If you as an employer cannot take the time out to go through that and evaluate what you would otherwise with your take home assignment, then something is not right.

This one size fits all rigid process won't work. Given a process, the employers must learn to be flexible, all the while expecting employees to do so, is insane. So certain qualified candidates saying 'someone else will hire me' is not arrogance, but fact.

Re: A Method I’ve Used to Eliminate Bad Tech Hires

#270

Post by hydandata » Thu, Nov 10, 2016, 9:07 AM UTC

I have offered exactly this to multiple companies who interviewed me, but so far none of them was willing to devote time to do it. I guess industry is just too used to the established practice, and "hey, if Google is doing it why not us?" thinking. It is not like I declined to do their normal interviewing process either, I offered this /after/ their process was finished. It is the best thing to do for both sides. And this was where they were trying to recruit me, not when I applied.

f.e. I really like my current job, so I would benefit from getting a better look at your workflow and interact with the team to decide if I really want to work for you.

Hopefully the situation will improve in the near future, but I am so taken aback with common practice that I currently see no other way but to start my own company, I just cannot imagine working for such stubborn and close minded people. And for darn sure when I hire, this will be the process.