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The smug style in American liberalism

vox.com

311–320 of 435 posts

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ending the war? He has escalated on all fronts and opened new ones too. Obama talks a good game but under it all is more surveillance, more economic inequality and more violence.

Escalating on all fronts? Please elaborate how getting the US out of a major war has done that. I certainly won't claim that Obama's foreign policy is golden, but it was said 'empire'...which would mean invading and occupying all over the globe. Obama isn't even close to the imperialist policies we had under Bush.

You haven't been paying attention. Ukraine, Syria (and by proxy Iraq), Libya, Arab Spring, Yemen .... now moving clandestine operations into central Africa. We also have Brazil in SA, we've had dronings in countless other countries, even against US citizens without trial which is also a first and I'm sure I'm missing a few on the hit list. Just because the tactics change doesn't mean he gets a green card.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Democrats just need to nominate better candidates. Al Gore was so boring that his Secret Service nickname was "Al Gore." (A joke, but one he told himself.) Clinton was a terrible candidate who only had a chance because she was running against another terrible candidate. (And to clarify, I think Clinton was a decent candidate in terms of her policies and her ability to do the job. But she was a terrible candid…

The Democrats had a good candidate and they were scared he wasn't centrist enough. If there's a lesson from this election, it's that when a candidate inspires a populist movement, the parties should just let it play out instead of trying to stop it in favor of an establishment candidate. Both parties tried to stop it, but only the Democrats succeeded. The general election was their punishment. Bernie would have beate…

The major argument against Sanders was that his platform was unrealistic. Remembering the disappointment that President Obama stoked when he was unable to execute much of his platform, many Democratic electors said they wanted the candidate that had a more modest platform that could be realistically achieved. In hindsight, sure, you are right. It's hard to know what do in the moment.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Democrats had a good candidate and they were scared he wasn't centrist enough. If there's a lesson from this election, it's that when a candidate inspires a populist movement, the parties should just let it play out instead of trying to stop it in favor of an establishment candidate. Both parties tried to stop it, but only the Democrats succeeded. The general election was their punishment. Bernie would have beate…

The major argument against Sanders was that his platform was unrealistic. Remembering the disappointment that President Obama stoked when he was unable to execute much of his platform, many Democratic electors said they wanted the candidate that had a more modest platform that could be realistically achieved. In hindsight, sure, you are right. It's hard to know what do in the moment.

Even if you concede that Sanders' platform was unrealistic, he would have been running against a candidate that wants to build a wall costing somewhere north of 11-figures, get Mexico to pay for it, negotiate better trade deals through sheer force of will and deport millions of illegal immigrants.

It's clear the electorate didn't take reality into consideration when casting their votes.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#314

Ironic. Vox exemplifies this.

They ended up firing the author.

They suspended the author, then let him back off of suspension. It was strange because he was leaving willingly in a few weeks to attend a graduate school program.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#315
post #4

Yes, liberals in America are all smug and holier-than-thou, unlike their ideological opponents, who really listen to what you have to say and never judge you ahead of time. And, of course, they never pass comment on how a person looks.

As a serious question. Do you think civil protections for LGBT people, gay marriage, and the like needs debate and/or negotiation? Because what makes some of us on the left come off smug or haughty is the fact that conservatives refuse to accept that we deserve those protections. Worse still, some of them think that LGBT people should be put into some kind of hospital to be "cured" because "JESUS!" I'm not trying to…

If you were a former evangelical Christian, then you should understand that according to most modern evangelical strains of Christianity (Southwestern Baptist anyways), treating LGBT people like human beings basically means rejecting the Christian faith. Sodom & Gorromah (& all that Old Testament jazz) & Romans 1:24 - 27 & 1 Corinthians 6:9 - 20 (& etc) were all impressed upon me from a very young age.

Oh, and religion & faith is largely based on emotion, so asking for something other than an emotive response from an Evangelical Christian is... misguided. (As far as I'm concerned, the Evangelical & Pentecostal strains of Christianity have evolved to be largely based on inspiring emotion particularly in their services, from the pop style worship music to the street preacher style sermons).

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#316
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, when I choose to date a woman (in part because of her beauty), I consider her my social equal. I also believe beauty gains a woman status and influence. Do you disagree with these two claims? (In fact, I consider beauty to be one of the most underappreciated virtues in the modern world. As a weird tangent, one of the major things I prefer about NYC to Bombay is how NYC weights beauty over wealth.) I'm beginning…

> when I choose to date a woman (in part because of her beauty), I consider her my social equal. I also believe beauty gains a woman status and influence. Do you disagree with these two claims? I have no idea whether you consider the women you date to be your social equal or not -- it is none of my business -- but I don't think it is necessarily the case that every man (or woman) considers their romantic partners the…

But, for the sake of argument (although it makes me sick to my stomach)...

Given this strong emotional motivation, do you really think you can objectively evaluate the truth of these claims without bias? I certainly don't.

So to answer your question: scientific racism often has motivations that are completely different from those behind most science.

Juxtaposing this with your term "hate group", I assume you mean the motivation is some sort of collectivist hatred or other negative feelings?

In that case, it's pretty clear that you intend this to be a mere ad-hominem attack. You simply refuse to acknowledge the possibility that a person might hold certain positive beliefs without also holding certain normative beliefs. Essentially: "Anyone who believes in evolution must therefore worship the devil. The church opposes both of these things!"

Have fun with that. If you ever want to understand the world better, consider the possibility that atheists are not necessarily satanists.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#317
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when I choose to date a woman (in part because of her beauty), I consider her my social equal. I also believe beauty gains a woman status and influence. Do you disagree with these two claims? I have no idea whether you consider the women you date to be your social equal or not -- it is none of my business -- but I don't think it is necessarily the case that every man (or woman) considers their romantic partners the…

But, for the sake of argument (although it makes me sick to my stomach)... Given this strong emotional motivation, do you really think you can objectively evaluate the truth of these claims without bias? I certainly don't. So to answer your question: scientific racism often has motivations that are completely different from those behind most science. Juxtaposing this with your term "hate group", I assume you mean the…

> do you really think you can objectively evaluate the truth of these claims without bias?

Yes, more or less, just as many kinds of professionals are required to do the same. But regardless, my entire point is that the truth of these claims is the least important thing about them, just as the interesting question about a wager between two college students of whether a vagrant would shit his pants or not when they set him on fire is not which of them was right.

> I assume you mean the motivation is some sort of collectivist hatred or other negative feeling

I did not study psychology but history, and I'm not interested in feelings but in the distribution of power. Yes, the motivation is to justify and perpetuate a distribution of power that's favorable to the groups where those ideas are found.

> In that case, it's pretty clear that you intend this to be a mere ad-hominem attack. You simply refuse to acknowledge the possibility that a person might hold certain positive beliefs without also holding certain normative beliefs.

Not at all. When discussing the history of ideas we do not attempt to track every single person's motivations, just as I don't suppose you "refuse to acknowledge the possibility" of some black woman being smarter than some Asian man. Your beliefs -- as I hope you know -- are not only not unique at this point in time, they echo almost precisely very old and well studied ones, and thus can be and indeed have been discussed in general without attributing anything to you personally. Even in proper science (leaving aside the question of whether a certain strain of scientific racism qualifies as such or not), researchers often discuss why they're interested in a specific question (and need to justify the importance of their research in order receive grants). So the question of what motivates certain people to be interested in studying and publicly writing about any scientific topic is not only reasonable and pertinent, but a fairly common one. Even on a personal level, a scientist often needs to answer it to herself and to others.

Also, I am absolutely not attacking you, but merely pointing out that the name of the school of thought your beliefs (in this context) belong to is scientific racism. Perhaps now that you know what your philosophy is called, you can more easily find academic discussions about it if you are interested in learning more. But just as I wouldn't be able to fairly say, "people here are call me names like billionaire", after telling them I have billions in the bank regardless of my personal feelings towards the name, I don't think you get to say that people "call you racist" when it is you who present yourself as such (and not in any subtle way, or one that's open to interpretation), even though it turns out that you don't like the title.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#318
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the issue. People did not vote Trump to satisfy hateful racism and sexism, they voted Trump despite everyone painting them as racist sexist pigs. The other option was so far from what they wanted they had little choice. Please try to understand why people disagree with you, why the majority disagrees with you.

I think you overstate your defense. Some people did not vote Trump to satisfy hateful racism or sexism. On the other hand, some most certainly did. In my neck of the woods, that some is not an insignificant amount.

Do you really know the motives of your neighbors that well?

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#319
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trumps treatment of women in the past makes my skin crawl, as an individual I think his behavior on that count is despicable. But if I were given the option of Hillary or Trump I'd vote Trump. I might be wrong but I've not heard him say anything that is racist. No doubt there are some that are supporting him because they're racist, that doesn't mean all are. On that note I would love someone to prove me wrong and sho…

The irony to me about immigration violations is that a major factor in reducing them has been...NAFTA. There is even currently a net migration of Mexicans back to Mexico. http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/19/more-mexicans-leaving-... I'm not sure I count as part of the left, but as an atheist, I have no trouble understanding a fetus was as much a life as a new born as an honest and principled position. On the other…

"I have no trouble understanding a fetus was as much a life as a new born as an honest and principled position" Starting with that is huge. Getting called a women hater, or getting told as a man you have no right to have an opinion, or get written off as a religious idiot, starts to polarize your opinions. But when each side recognizes the others opinion is valid then you can start to look for a compromise.

Personally I think making abortion something that has to be legislated at the state level and leaving moral issues up to public referendum would go a long way to removing it from the normal political divide.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. The USA has the best doctors and hospitals. The marginal benefit to having better doctors and hospitals is completely dwarfed by their higher prices. Would you be willing to pay 2x to have a 5% better chance of no complications on a surgery for a rare condition? Well the USA does exactly that. 2. The USA subsidizes drug development for the rest of the world. All the R&D happens here, and the only reason so much mo…

2 is a good point, but I don't think 1 is correct. I've heard that Cuba has the best doctors, and they often play a crucial role in emergency aid to other countries. For quality of health care overall, the US is just a solid middle ranker when it comes to life expectancy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expe... That's only one metric, of course, but it seems like an important one. It seems lik…

Cuba has people in a different climate, with a different culture, and different inherent susceptibility to disease.

If we were to supply Cuba with bacon double cheeseburgers and unlimited soda refills, that life expectancy would not be so hot. Also, give them all desk jobs.

Healthcare is better in the USA. We just like to do bad things to ourselves.

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