Live data from Hacker News

The smug style in American liberalism

vox.com

181–190 of 435 posts

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#181
post #141
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing about the UK situation that most worries me is the smug left trying to grasp at any way they can to overturn the referendum result or undermine subsequent action. There seems to be the idea that of we just keep ignoring and denigrating hard enough then the morons will be safely put back in their box and we can go on as before. It never occurs to them that that would just make everything even worse in the lo…

The thing is that the only alternative to putting the morons back in their box appears to be letting the morons run the country. Sometimes public opinion really is just wrong , and there is no easy way forward when that happens.

I think that attitude sums up the problem nicely.

Anyone that disagrees with my take on this issue is a moron.

I disagree fundamentally - if you stop regarding the 'other side' as 'other', as stupid, as meritless, and start to consider their opinions when making policy, well we might make progress.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#182

This is definitely the preference falsification election. Those who know me on HN know that I'm an outspoken proponent of unorthodox ideas. I'm regularly shouted down, called racist/evil/etc, downmodded and flagged on HN. I also get a steady stream of private emails: "I wouldn't say this publicly cause of the bullies, but that .gov link with all the data does seem to support you. I think you might be right, I need to…

> Apparently in the privacy of a voting booth, people are willing to express their true beliefs.

It appears that Trump won because of working-class people in the Rust Belt, who repeatedly got the short end of the stick by the neoliberal policy of both parties. Democrats should have had their backs, but they'd abandoned them, instead, serving the "professional meritocracy". He did not win because of spoiled, well-off contrarians on the coasts. I'd like to believe that this election was decided by people who have really suffered the devastating consequences of being economically marginalized (also, relatively old), not by tech dudes who were offended they'd been called sexist on Twitter.

Presenting this election as a contest between anti-PC gamergaters and safe-space college girls is not only wrong, but suffers from the same blindness of the elites that Clinton suffers from. If it were the true story, then it would be far too depressing to think that the elites are so obsessed with themselves that they are unable to take anything seriously. Fortunately, this is not what happened because Trump's voters are too old to belong to either group. But if it were the true story, then Trump is exactly what both groups deserve.

> I love the great big "fuck you" to the biased media

You know something? Me too. This is the same media that shot down Sanders. But I feel sorry for those contrarians who voted for him just for this "fuck you". He's going to be their president, too. But I'm not sorry for them for that; fortunately for them, they're probably well-cushioned enough to not suffer any direct consequences that are too severe. I'm sorry for them because their empathy is so lacking that they don't mind the real harm done to real people by their lol-spite decision (even though that's probably not what directly handed Trump the victory). The ray of hope I see in this outcome is that maybe the American "liberals" Clinton represented would realize how much their empathy towards the victims of neoliberal capitalism was lacking, too.

> sneering at him, calling him racist

That's because he is racist and/or certainly doesn't mind the association, although I don't see what this has to do with anything. Xenophobia was his overt battle-cry, no dog-whistles needed, and he enjoyed endorsements by people who would have been offended not to be called racist. It is clear that Trump believed that being labelled a racist would only help his chances. He certainly enjoyed and invited the sneers. If there is one thing Trump has shown himself to be good at, it is manipulating the media to a sort of symbiotic relationship. But if anything, he is a product of the media, not its victim.

> called racist

Wait, what? I thought you liked to present yourself as a male- and white-supremacist of the long, proud scientific racism tradition. You have repeatedly expressed a belief that men and whites are innately superior to women and people of other races in many qualities that you value (oh, sorry, you believe Asians and Ashkenazi Jewish men are naturally superior to whites). I always figured that you enjoyed bathing in the air of "unorthodoxy" and contrarianism by pretending to hold those views. You can't both identify as racist to appear unorthodox and at the same time present yourself as a victim of your own show. Pick one.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#183
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Full disclosure: I'm a Hillary voter, after much internal fretting about voting third party or writing in Obama. Looking at the reactions on my Facebook feed, the large majority of people seem to be taking from this experience the learning that Trump voters are all disgusting misogynistic racist pigs, and America deserves to be damned for its sins against the pro-Clinton media orthodoxy. It's tiring, because in terms…

I've yet to meet a Trump voter who didn't meet that criteria. Just because people don't like to be described in a certain way doesn't mean that it doesn't describe them. Trump didn't win because of any sort of liberal catechism. He won because the media has done a bang up job of scaring the crap out of the average citizen about immigration and terrorism while pimping his brand because he's a perverse curiosity in a s…

I know some Trump supporters who are neither racist nor homophobic nor misogynistic. I also know Hillary voters who will drop the "N" word talking about blacks. You can't really divine who a person is by who they vote for.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#184
post #42

This is definitely the preference falsification election. Those who know me on HN know that I'm an outspoken proponent of unorthodox ideas. I'm regularly shouted down, called racist/evil/etc, downmodded and flagged on HN. I also get a steady stream of private emails: "I wouldn't say this publicly cause of the bullies, but that .gov link with all the data does seem to support you. I think you might be right, I need to…

Full disclosure: I'm a Hillary voter, after much internal fretting about voting third party or writing in Obama. Looking at the reactions on my Facebook feed, the large majority of people seem to be taking from this experience the learning that Trump voters are all disgusting misogynistic racist pigs, and America deserves to be damned for its sins against the pro-Clinton media orthodoxy. It's tiring, because in terms…

I remember my Facebook feed from 8 years ago - my liberal friends were celebrating, and my conservative friends were disappointed, but trying to be (somewhat) conciliatory. Now, my conservative friends are celebrating but my liberal friends attitude is "screw America, I hope you choke in your own vomit, you racist bastards".

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#185
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the things I don't understand about modern politics, morally conservative always seem to go towards extreme capitalism and morally progressives tend to go towards socialism. Personally I'm more middle of the road on socialism VS capitalism. But I tend to vote and align with parties on their moral stance. Even though Trump appears to have a crappy personal Moral standard his policies at least align more…

>here are actually themes in the Bible that talk about a "worker deserving his wage", and "if a man doesn't work he doesn't eat". wow some fantastic turns of logic you are using. Christian means Christ-like. did Christ preach social darwinism, or did he spend his time with prostitutes and lepers? Did Christ preach having the poor fend for themselves, or did he feed the hungry? Did Christ praise the wealthy, or does h…

There is a lot more to Christianity than being "Christ-like". The parent's point is there exists a healthy serving of many unChrist-like, by your definition, ideas in the Bible. And even then, there is much more to a religion than its holy texts or doctrine.

I'd leave it to the practitioners to exhibit what it means to be one of their followers, and it seems the American practitioners haven't noticed this incompatibility you're concerned about.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I love the poorly educated." This wasn't about the economy at all which is pretty good. This was a demagogue preying on gullibility. Y'all just elected him, citation unnecessary.

What's the alternative? Hating them? Pretending they don't exist? How did that work out for you?

He loves the uneducated because they're gullible. In fact, he loves them so much that he'll educate them at Trump University.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#187
post #168

Bravo. Full disclosure, I voted for HRC. However, I've been saying this to my liberal friends for the entire election cycle. The message from of all of my liberal Facebook friends has been some derivative of: "Hear me out. We know Hillary isn't the best candidate, but you have to vote for Trump. If you don't you're a racist misogynist. Also, if you vote for a third party candidate, you are basically voting for Donald…

I'm just curious how old you are because I lived through the Bill Clinton years and it was appalling how bad the Clintons were. Their legacy from Arkansas all the way up the Pay to Play Clinton Foundation has been completely consistent--to bend and break the law everywhere possible if it is to their benefit to do so and then engage in cover ups, blackmail, and possibly murder to get away with it. They are a modern day crime family. You probably dismiss all this as unproven "tinfoil hat" conspiracy stuff, right? But there is such a large body of circumstancial evidence when it comes to the Clintons that it is impossible to ignore. Then the leaks started dropping and we got a small window in a large world of corruption. Did none of this occur to you?

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#188
post #12

As a Brit it has been fascinating to watch the Dems run basically exactly the same campaign Remain ran.

As an American Democrat, I'm not in the least bit embarrassed by our campaign. We ran on 8 years of growth, cutting the deficit, 5% unemployment, tripled stock market, etc. Justly proud of that. I'm embarrassed for the country by what Republicans ran on and who they elected.

What growth? Obama has never presided over a single year of decent growth.

Cutting the deficit? Get real--we need to cut government, not just the growth rate of government.

5% unemployment--made up numbers

Tripled stock market--yes, because of Quantitative Easing, aka money printing.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I love the poorly educated." This wasn't about the economy at all which is pretty good. This was a demagogue preying on gullibility. Y'all just elected him, citation unnecessary.

When you say that to your own supporters what you're saying is "I know that some of you don't have as much education as you may have wanted. You're welcome here, and will be listened to." Instead of that, the Democrats ran on "stupid people are mad because they are poor. We smart, enlightened people should make them shut up, and show them that this isn't their country anymore." i.e. "We will herd the poorly educated.…

Yes, you've illustrated how demagogues work.

You've even elected one.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#190
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trumps treatment of women in the past makes my skin crawl, as an individual I think his behavior on that count is despicable. But if I were given the option of Hillary or Trump I'd vote Trump. I might be wrong but I've not heard him say anything that is racist. No doubt there are some that are supporting him because they're racist, that doesn't mean all are. On that note I would love someone to prove me wrong and sho…

The irony to me about immigration violations is that a major factor in reducing them has been...NAFTA. There is even currently a net migration of Mexicans back to Mexico. http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/19/more-mexicans-leaving-... I'm not sure I count as part of the left, but as an atheist, I have no trouble understanding a fetus was as much a life as a new born as an honest and principled position. On the other…

> On the other hand, I'm not sure how you come to a political compromise with people that disagree with it (how do they reach out?).

I've often found myself with the same question. What's a satisfactory answer for "THIS IS MURDER!?" vs. "Eh, I don't think so, more like a nasty wart...". I understand both, but I just don't see place for a bridge other than telling one side to get over it.

Post reply on HN