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The smug style in American liberalism

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Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#51

Post by CalChris »

gaius wrote: post #47
CalChris wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American Democrat, I'm not in the least bit embarrassed by our campaign. We ran on 8 years of growth, cutting the deficit, 5% unemployment, tripled stock market, etc. Justly proud of that. I'm embarrassed for the country by what Republicans ran on and who they elected.

That's kinda my point. This election was yours to lose, just as it was Remain's, since it was the status quo. Genuine question, are you aware of Brexit at all? Do you feel the Dems learned any lessons from it?

As I pointed out above, the status quo is actually pretty good.

And yes, I'm aware of Brexit at all. I think that Trump learned more about Brexit than we learned about Remain, Brexit being the politics of complaint.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#52

Post by [deleted] »

ant6n wrote: post #39
yummyfajitas wrote: post #35

This is definitely the preference falsification election. Those who know me on HN know that I'm an outspoken proponent of unorthodox ideas. I'm regularly shouted down, called racist/evil/etc, downmodded and flagged on HN. I also get a steady stream of private emails: "I wouldn't say this publicly cause of the bullies, but that .gov link with all the data does seem to support you. I think you might be right, I need to…

Regarding the difference between polls and election results: maybe many people are racist, sexist xenophobes and if they tell the preference in public, they get rightfully derided for it. But with the secrecy of the ballot, they can give into their deep desire to kick out the Muslims and the Blacks, kick the females back into the kitchen and make America white again.

[deleted]

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#53

Post by reitanqild »

ant6n wrote: post #43
andars wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the article isn't very good. In essence, it reverses the direction of "holier than thou". However, it raises an excellent point. The United States is not going to get anywhere if half the country looks down on the other half as a bunch of plebs, and in response the "plebs" disdain the elites. (I understand that this is a gross simplification, but I have seen this attitude often enough that it is significant). Fo…

I think the problem is that the "plebs" don't just hate the elites, they also hate minorities and people who don't have their religion; and they have big issues with patriarchy and sexism. That's why the minorities and the "elites" don't respect them. In the end "the left" doesn't care if they are poor or uneducated and whatnot, they'd still embrace them. But refusing to accept basic democratic ideals of equality and…

> the "plebs" don't just hate the elites, they also hate minorities and people who don't have their religion

Can you stop telling who other people hate?

At the moment you are the one who spreads hate.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#54

Post by rorykoehler »

scarmig wrote: post #42
yummyfajitas wrote: post #35

This is definitely the preference falsification election. Those who know me on HN know that I'm an outspoken proponent of unorthodox ideas. I'm regularly shouted down, called racist/evil/etc, downmodded and flagged on HN. I also get a steady stream of private emails: "I wouldn't say this publicly cause of the bullies, but that .gov link with all the data does seem to support you. I think you might be right, I need to…

Full disclosure: I'm a Hillary voter, after much internal fretting about voting third party or writing in Obama. Looking at the reactions on my Facebook feed, the large majority of people seem to be taking from this experience the learning that Trump voters are all disgusting misogynistic racist pigs, and America deserves to be damned for its sins against the pro-Clinton media orthodoxy. It's tiring, because in terms…

Obama is a huge part of why this happened. He promised change and delivered empire.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#55

Post by ant6n »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #46
ant6n wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding the difference between polls and election results: maybe many people are racist, sexist xenophobes and if they tell the preference in public, they get rightfully derided for it. But with the secrecy of the ballot, they can give into their deep desire to kick out the Muslims and the Blacks, kick the females back into the kitchen and make America white again.

There are other reasons to support Trump. Being an unorthodox person who they perceived as nonjudgemental, quite a few people have confided in me that they like him. Only one of these people was white, several were female, and none are particularly racist. Reasons I've been told include: - A "fuck you" to the establishment and orthodoxy. - A belief that Hillary is corrupt. - Entertainment value. One Trump voter I kno…

I've done a fair bit of arguing with the folks here on HN, it's interesting because it doesn't match the echo chamber I have on twitter or facebook. There seem to be a lot of Trump supporter here, which I find very surprising.

This idea keeps coming up again and again that using the word 'racist' in the context of the Trump campaign is essentially name-calling, an insult.

The problem is, racism is a big, big, big issue. And Trump is a racist bigot, you simply cannot deny it. That's why people that are described as 'on the left' feel so strongly about him. It's not 'pulling the race card', it's an actual big problem. America has spent 200 years trying to overcome it, and it's still so far behind. The open racism displayed by Trump is the reason why so many people viscerally hate him. Add to it the sexism (and sexual assault), the bullying, and the xenophobia, and the support for him becomes essentially unfathomable for many who consider his attitudes and behaviors completely incompatible with basic democratic values.

The article posted calls it smug, the commuter above called it 'not tolerating dissent'. I would call it a zero tolerance policy on racism, sexism, bullying and xenophobia.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#56

Post by hueving »

MaysonL wrote: post #31
hueving wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They effectively lost it with the implementation of Obamacare. The premiums and deductibles are so high that the plans only really protect against catastrophic loss for an obscene monthly cost.

The rate of increase of health care costs has been significantly lower since Obamacare passed than it was before.

60% YoY premium increase for the last 2 years on my parents' plan with a $13k deductible. Highest increases they have ever had. It's an anecdote, but it's certainly antithetical to what you said.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#57

Post by jhoechtl »

CalChris wrote: post #40
gaius wrote: post #12

As a Brit it has been fascinating to watch the Dems run basically exactly the same campaign Remain ran.

As an American Democrat, I'm not in the least bit embarrassed by our campaign. We ran on 8 years of growth, cutting the deficit, 5% unemployment, tripled stock market, etc. Justly proud of that. I'm embarrassed for the country by what Republicans ran on and who they elected.

Cutting the deficit? Which one? If you are referring to the National Debt you are grossly wrong

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt_of_the_United_St...

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#58

Post by xupybd »

ant6n wrote: post #55
yummyfajitas wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are other reasons to support Trump. Being an unorthodox person who they perceived as nonjudgemental, quite a few people have confided in me that they like him. Only one of these people was white, several were female, and none are particularly racist. Reasons I've been told include: - A "fuck you" to the establishment and orthodoxy. - A belief that Hillary is corrupt. - Entertainment value. One Trump voter I kno…

I've done a fair bit of arguing with the folks here on HN, it's interesting because it doesn't match the echo chamber I have on twitter or facebook. There seem to be a lot of Trump supporter here, which I find very surprising. This idea keeps coming up again and again that using the word 'racist' in the context of the Trump campaign is essentially name-calling, an insult. The problem is, racism is a big, big, big iss…

Do you have any examples of what you call racism from Trump. I haven't been following him super close (not American), but from what I've seen he wants to tighten up immigration. It's my understanding that this is not racism, but protectionism. Here in NZ it's very hard for people to immigrate here (I have had friends have to leave) but we don't associate racism with tight immigration policy.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#59

Post by ant6n »

xupybd wrote: post #49
ant6n wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding the difference between polls and election results: maybe many people are racist, sexist xenophobes and if they tell the preference in public, they get rightfully derided for it. But with the secrecy of the ballot, they can give into their deep desire to kick out the Muslims and the Blacks, kick the females back into the kitchen and make America white again.

This is the issue. People did not vote Trump to satisfy hateful racism and sexism, they voted Trump despite everyone painting them as racist sexist pigs. The other option was so far from what they wanted they had little choice. Please try to understand why people disagree with you, why the majority disagrees with you.

The problem is, I don't buy it. I don't believe it. I listen to how Trump talks, how Trump supporters talk, all the racism, the sexism, the xenophobia, it's just not right. There's no excuse.

It's the beginning of fascism.

Btw, I'm German. (I've lived in North America for more than ten years)

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#60

Post by CalChris »

jhoechtl wrote: post #57
CalChris wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American Democrat, I'm not in the least bit embarrassed by our campaign. We ran on 8 years of growth, cutting the deficit, 5% unemployment, tripled stock market, etc. Justly proud of that. I'm embarrassed for the country by what Republicans ran on and who they elected.

Cutting the deficit? Which one? If you are referring to the National Debt you are grossly wrong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt_of_the_United_St...

Of course, if you look up in the dictionary you'll find that deficit and debt are distinct words:

  debit: something that is owed or that one is bound to pay
  to or perform for another

  deficit: the amount by which expenditures or liabilities
  exceed income or assets
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/deficit http://www.dictionary.com/browse/debt

The Federal deficit was about $1.4T when Obama started and its about $600B now. Obama has been very fiscally conservative. In particular, he put the Afghanistan and Iraq wars on normal rather than emergency funding basis.

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_deficit_chart.ht...

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