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The smug style in American liberalism

vox.com

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Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#41
post #31
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They effectively lost it with the implementation of Obamacare. The premiums and deductibles are so high that the plans only really protect against catastrophic loss for an obscene monthly cost.

The rate of increase of health care costs has been significantly lower since Obamacare passed than it was before.

I do not believe this is true. Please cite your sources.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#42

This is definitely the preference falsification election. Those who know me on HN know that I'm an outspoken proponent of unorthodox ideas. I'm regularly shouted down, called racist/evil/etc, downmodded and flagged on HN. I also get a steady stream of private emails: "I wouldn't say this publicly cause of the bullies, but that .gov link with all the data does seem to support you. I think you might be right, I need to…

Full disclosure: I'm a Hillary voter, after much internal fretting about voting third party or writing in Obama.

Looking at the reactions on my Facebook feed, the large majority of people seem to be taking from this experience the learning that Trump voters are all disgusting misogynistic racist pigs, and America deserves to be damned for its sins against the pro-Clinton media orthodoxy.

It's tiring, because in terms of concrete policies, I line up fairly closely with what I imagine Clinton's "true" beliefs to be. But anyone who mentions anything against the progressive catechism is evil. If you even misprioritize items on the agenda, you become evil. And everyone with actual power seems to be in on this train out to condemn the bad think--academia, the media, corporate management, you name it. Even now I worry about this comment being tracked to my real identity and facing professional repercussions because of implying that the bad think can sometimes be reasonable.

My hope is that this loss forces left activists to re-evaluate how they treat dissent.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#43
post #26
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only claim of a moral highground here is implicit in that shitpost of an article.

Yes, the article isn't very good. In essence, it reverses the direction of "holier than thou". However, it raises an excellent point. The United States is not going to get anywhere if half the country looks down on the other half as a bunch of plebs, and in response the "plebs" disdain the elites. (I understand that this is a gross simplification, but I have seen this attitude often enough that it is significant). Fo…

I think the problem is that the "plebs" don't just hate the elites, they also hate minorities and people who don't have their religion; and they have big issues with patriarchy and sexism.

That's why the minorities and the "elites" don't respect them. In the end "the left" doesn't care if they are poor or uneducated and whatnot, they'd still embrace them. But refusing to accept basic democratic ideals of equality and freedom of religion and separation of church and state is always going to be a problem.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#44
post #9

Well tens of millions of "stupid hicks" are about to lose their health insurance. How is that for a "good fact"? Sorry for being smug.

Are these the same people who've seen their rates go up 85% in two years? Bloody ingrates!

This line of argument would be more persuasive if any of the Republicans, Trump or otherwise, had proposed an alternative that amounts to more than letting people fend for themselves

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#45
post #39

This is definitely the preference falsification election. Those who know me on HN know that I'm an outspoken proponent of unorthodox ideas. I'm regularly shouted down, called racist/evil/etc, downmodded and flagged on HN. I also get a steady stream of private emails: "I wouldn't say this publicly cause of the bullies, but that .gov link with all the data does seem to support you. I think you might be right, I need to…

Regarding the difference between polls and election results: maybe many people are racist, sexist xenophobes and if they tell the preference in public, they get rightfully derided for it. But with the secrecy of the ballot, they can give into their deep desire to kick out the Muslims and the Blacks, kick the females back into the kitchen and make America white again.

they get rightfully derided for it

Yeah but one could have observed that shouting/bullying down someone because of their beliefs is counterproductive in getting them to reconsider them. It's not like there wasn't any warning to this.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#46
post #39

This is definitely the preference falsification election. Those who know me on HN know that I'm an outspoken proponent of unorthodox ideas. I'm regularly shouted down, called racist/evil/etc, downmodded and flagged on HN. I also get a steady stream of private emails: "I wouldn't say this publicly cause of the bullies, but that .gov link with all the data does seem to support you. I think you might be right, I need to…

Regarding the difference between polls and election results: maybe many people are racist, sexist xenophobes and if they tell the preference in public, they get rightfully derided for it. But with the secrecy of the ballot, they can give into their deep desire to kick out the Muslims and the Blacks, kick the females back into the kitchen and make America white again.

There are other reasons to support Trump. Being an unorthodox person who they perceived as nonjudgemental, quite a few people have confided in me that they like him. Only one of these people was white, several were female, and none are particularly racist.

Reasons I've been told include:

- A "fuck you" to the establishment and orthodoxy.

- A belief that Hillary is corrupt.

- Entertainment value. One Trump voter I know also donated to Hillary in order to get the "Woman Card": https://shop.hillaryclinton.com/products/the-woman-card

- A support for nationalism and economic populism.

- A belief that Trump can do for the country what he did for Wolman skating rink: http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/features/2015-09-29/a-1980... (I think Peter Thiel falls into this category.)

I know it's tempting to level the worst insult you can think of - raaaciiiissstt - against anyone who disagrees with you. Consider the possibility that this is what allowed Trump to win in the first place.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#47
post #12

As a Brit it has been fascinating to watch the Dems run basically exactly the same campaign Remain ran.

As an American Democrat, I'm not in the least bit embarrassed by our campaign. We ran on 8 years of growth, cutting the deficit, 5% unemployment, tripled stock market, etc. Justly proud of that. I'm embarrassed for the country by what Republicans ran on and who they elected.

That's kinda my point. This election was yours to lose, just as it was Remain's, since it was the status quo. Genuine question, are you aware of Brexit at all? Do you feel the Dems learned any lessons from it?

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#48
post #12

As a Brit it has been fascinating to watch the Dems run basically exactly the same campaign Remain ran.

As an American Democrat, I'm not in the least bit embarrassed by our campaign. We ran on 8 years of growth, cutting the deficit, 5% unemployment, tripled stock market, etc. Justly proud of that. I'm embarrassed for the country by what Republicans ran on and who they elected.

No, "you" ran on "Trump is raaaciiist and if you support him you are too!"

(I put "you" in quotes since I'm referring to Democrats in general, not you personally.)

It's the same thing "you" ran against Bush and Romney on. It might even be true this time around, but you are the boy who cried wolf at this point.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#49
post #39

This is definitely the preference falsification election. Those who know me on HN know that I'm an outspoken proponent of unorthodox ideas. I'm regularly shouted down, called racist/evil/etc, downmodded and flagged on HN. I also get a steady stream of private emails: "I wouldn't say this publicly cause of the bullies, but that .gov link with all the data does seem to support you. I think you might be right, I need to…

Regarding the difference between polls and election results: maybe many people are racist, sexist xenophobes and if they tell the preference in public, they get rightfully derided for it. But with the secrecy of the ballot, they can give into their deep desire to kick out the Muslims and the Blacks, kick the females back into the kitchen and make America white again.

This is the issue. People did not vote Trump to satisfy hateful racism and sexism, they voted Trump despite everyone painting them as racist sexist pigs.

The other option was so far from what they wanted they had little choice. Please try to understand why people disagree with you, why the majority disagrees with you.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#50
post #4

Yes, liberals in America are all smug and holier-than-thou, unlike their ideological opponents, who really listen to what you have to say and never judge you ahead of time. And, of course, they never pass comment on how a person looks.

You don't get to claim the moral high ground and use the tactics of the opposition at the same time.

Where did I claim the moral high ground? I was just pointing out that the article is one-eyed.

I don't even live in America, so it's not like I consider myself an American liberal. In fact, in my country, the Liberal Party are the conservatives, and being centre-left, I wouldn't identify with them either.

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