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One Road Out of Depression

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131–140 of 165 posts

Re: One Road Out of Depression

#131

I experienced some depression, as a teenager, and remember eventually finding a kind of 'logical' (or perhaps 'philosophical') way out of it. A key part of this was that, for me, depression is linked to lack of purpose. So there was this question hanging over me, 'what is the purpose of it all'. Well the answer to that question was then essentially 'why are you asking?'. Putting it less glibly, if you are unhappy abo…

So, what you are saying is that true question that is/was bugging you is "what is the purpose that justifies my suffering?". And then you can get out of that existential dread either by finding a purpose, or by tackling the suffering, one way or another.

Is that about right?

Re: One Road Out of Depression

#132

The "chemical imbalance" theory has been losing steam for quite some time. The British Psychological Society has issued this consensus statement: There is actually no evidence for the current view – and we agree with many senior psychiatrists in saying that – we do have an overwhelming amount of evidence that even severe psychiatric breakdown is actually the end result of a complex mix of social and psychological cir…

How do they explain the genetic factors that cause predisposition?

Just as the humans who eat too much sugar can more easily get type 2 diabetes, some humans who are exposed to 'X' can get mental diseases. (X is unknown or it varies). What if some humans are just more 'evolved' to live in the modern world than others?

10-12,000 years of living within dense populations, under despots, with periodic plagues, and in near constant war probably applies a lot of evolutionary selection pressures. Some of us whose ancestors were assimilated later probably have more genes that haven't been 'weeded out'.

I've read some research that human brain size has decreased over the last 100,000 years. The theory is that as humans began to become less independent, they had less need for certain types of brain functions. Since the brain is an extremely resource intensive organ, less brain means less energy requirements. So, humans quickly lose areas of the brain that are less necessary.

There are correlations between intelligence and depression. There are correlations between intelligence and sensory and spatial abilities. Maybe some of these things are related.

Re: One Road Out of Depression

#133
post #104

I experienced some depression, as a teenager, and remember eventually finding a kind of 'logical' (or perhaps 'philosophical') way out of it. A key part of this was that, for me, depression is linked to lack of purpose. So there was this question hanging over me, 'what is the purpose of it all'. Well the answer to that question was then essentially 'why are you asking?'. Putting it less glibly, if you are unhappy abo…

I just want to add a cautionary note, which is that sometimes introspection isn't the solution, but the problem itself. Especially in the case of a combination of depression and anxiety, it may be that introspection drops you further down the rabbit hole, when the way out is to do not think .

Obviously this is a complex issue, but in general I've found introspective people are the saddest. People that live in the moment are often the happiest.

http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=3501

Re: One Road Out of Depression

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try starting with something simple, like 15 pushups a day.

On days when it literally takes everything you can muster to drag yourself out of bed and into the shower, 15 pushups just aren't happening. On other days it seems like a walk in the park to blast through 100... so I hear what you're saying. It's just that it's not always just as easy as getting through 15 pushups a day.

I've been in that same boat, being blessed with both bipolar and depression, and although just saying "hey some push-ups will do the trick" is perhaps a bit trivial I will add that even a tiny bit of exercise will help as it releases endorphins that are rather pleasant. Even on really fucking shitty days, I've tried to do a little work out. It's not a work out that will get me buff or anything but that's not the point. It honestly started as a healthy form of masochism for me...I loved the pain and it took my mind off everything else for a minute so I could focus on breathing and form. Even one or two push-ups, a long run...anything really...can help. It isn't a solution, but it's a relief and in the world of depression sometimes that's the difference between waking up tomorrow or punctuating a very short life.

Re: One Road Out of Depression

#136

The "chemical imbalance" theory has been losing steam for quite some time. The British Psychological Society has issued this consensus statement: There is actually no evidence for the current view – and we agree with many senior psychiatrists in saying that – we do have an overwhelming amount of evidence that even severe psychiatric breakdown is actually the end result of a complex mix of social and psychological cir…

Scott Alexander ('Slate Star Codex') wrote a very good post on how to think about the "chemical imbalance theory", where it's useful and where it's not. Here it is: http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/04/05/chemical-imbalance/

I also remember reading another article by someone in the field which explained it in terms of proximal and distal causes, which is basically about "different level[s] of abstraction" as tbrownaw in this thread puts it. Will link to it if I manage to find it.

Re: One Road Out of Depression

#137
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "get up and fix yourself" theory lost all its wheels long ago, though.

No, no, no, I'm not advocating for that at all. Rather, trying to be the slightest bit aware of what the sewage of thoughts in your head consists of.

> trying to be the slightest bit aware of what the sewage of thoughts in your head consists of.

That's a pretty useful thing for a "normal" person as a preventative measure to reduce the probability of depression (although there's tons of biological causes including things about gut biome, overstressed immune system, etc., and it's not clear if this 'awareness' would help in those cases).

But to a person in the middle of depression, that's like asking them to fire up a debugger and inspect the issue, when their very problem is that their OS barely boots up and refuses to run any program whatsoever.

The first paragraph about the 'preventative' aspect might be what you had in mind, with the second para's content implicit in it, but I feel it's important to make it explicit given how widely misunderstood an illness depression is.

Re: One Road Out of Depression

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, so are you saying it is or is not a chemical imbalance?

I think depression is a beast with many intersecting roads. The chemical imbalance seems like it could be more the result of something than the root cause.

What you're referring to is, I believe, proximal causes and distal causes.

Distal causes in depression's case maybe stuff like sleep deprivation, overstressed immune system, gut biome issues, etc. (and possibly genetic elements, who knows!) with little known about how they cause it or how they interact/overlap with one another.

The immediate proximal cause is, of course, the "chemical imbalance", which is popsci speak for neurotransmitter issues (among possibly others), a higher level proximal cause might be a life event that somehow causes some 'critical mass threshold' leading a spiraling avalanche (though again, little is known at the biological level about why this is so, assuming it is so.)

Re: One Road Out of Depression

#139

When I got Depressed (capital D, though I was only 4 on a 10 point scale) the hardest part for me was accepting that I needed to take medication, that I couldn't WILL myself better (not for want of trying I can tell you). Maybe some people can think themselves better, but if you are properly depressed, and your doctor is suggesting medication, it's not failing/losing/lessening to take the drugs to correct a chemical…

I am in no way trying to be snarky here, but can I ask what is meant by the phrase, "Capital D Depressed"? I've also seen someone use "Capital A Architect". Does the meaning change by capitalizing a word that isn't usually? Is this something to do with making it into a proper noun?

Sorry that this is off-topic but it's something that's bugged me for a long time. I've never understood it and it's very hard to google for an answer.

Re: One Road Out of Depression

#140

Nutrition for me has been a big one. I've only very gradually realised the enormous impact my diet has had on my mood and cognition in general. Sure, I've heard a million times before that a good diet, sleep[1], and exercise[2] have a great impact on one's mood and brain function. And if I was ever challenged on it, I would have said that I believed it. But I never acted like I believed in it, until I actually starte…

cool to see a fellow ambiguous believer of dreams, here is my take on them https://medium.com/@duopixel/an-exploration-into-dreams-5b8e...

That's a very interesting read, deserving of an HN thread all its own.

Some comments:

You might want to consider keeping track of the images and themes that come up in your dreams, and cross-reference them. When I did so, it helped me to recognize that my dreams have a sort of language that is spoken in symbols, and understanding the meaning of those symbols can help reveal what a dream is trying to communicate.

I believe that each person's dream symbols have meaning that is specific to that individual, though sometimes there are commonalities between people and even cultures. This is why I really hesitate to interpret anyone else's dream. Just because one symbol might mean something to me, or even to a lot of people doesn't mean it'll mean the same thing to the dreamer.

There are also ways of digging deeper in to the subconscious and fruitfully looking deeper in to the dream than what might appear on the surface. One well known technique is doing free association with anything and everything in the dream.

For example, if someone in a dream was wearing a black hat, what does that make you think of? Perhaps the first thing you think of is that the person in question is a bad guy. What else does it make you think of? Perhaps you recently saw someone wearing a black hat in waking life, or you know someone who usually wears a black hat. Or maybe you associate it with the Black Hat security conference, or with hackers, or with all of the above.

As you can imagine, every dream image or symbol has potentially infinite meanings, and often very personal ones. Investigating them like this can yield a lot of insight, and this can be done for every symbol in the dream. Even better results can come if you index and cross-reference all of these symbols and interpretations. Such record keeping can help you to remember that, for instance, a black-hat wearing person that you dreamt of last night also appeared in another dream a year ago, and studying those dreams together could help you make further connections that you might not have immediately thought of if you had not done this.

Another technique is having imaginal dialogues with or asking questions of the people or even objects in your dreams. That can help to, in a way, pick up dreaming where you left off, and to get more insight as to the role of something in the dream. Some people might object that since the dialogue is imagined it's not valuable. But, as Jung pointed out to a patient of his who after a long time revealed that all the dreams she told him she never had and simply made them up, they still come from the imagination and therefore are just as valuable as "real" dreams in understanding one's subconscious. Anyway, it's just another thing to try. Your mileage may vary.

Yet another technique is to imagine yourself in a situation from a dream you've had, and imagining what you would do in that situation, and 'dreaming it forward' as it were. Jung called this technique 'active imagination', and stressed that he thought it was critical that the person doing this should try to act in the imagination just as if he really were in the situation he imagined. This technique can make you even more in touch with your subconscious, especially if afterwards you analyze the imagined events just as if they'd been a dream.

On another note, I don't think it's really clear where dream contents come from. Some may say that it's obvious they come from one's self, and nothing else. But even if they do, what is the self? Many people have very different conceptions of the self. Some believe there is just the conscious self and nothing else -- the ego, as it were. Some believe one's self is nothing but the brain. Others believe there is a conscious and subconscious self. Some believe in a 'higher self', or even in many selves, etc. Jung thought archetypes were the sources of some dream contents, but he did not commit to saying what the source of the archetypes were, even leaving open the possibility that their sources were extra-personal (ie. outside the boundary of what is normally considered to be a particular human body and mind) such as gods or spirits -- one of the things that earned him the reputation for being a mystic. I don't believe in anything in particular myself, but do find it interesting to consider the possibilities, and generally find the simple reductionist view that everything's just a matter of physics in the brain to be unpalatable.

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