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Why is electricity so hard to understand? (1989)

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Re: Why is electricity so hard to understand? (1989)

#151
post #143

Maybe this is the right occasion to re-ask a question I asked some years ago on stack exchange, but (despite several people trying their best to explain) still failed to understand the answer to. So: does electricity have 'mass'? What I mean is, when current flows, is there a transfer of electrons (or something else) from the power source to whatever it is send to? And is there a difference between AC and DC? The con…

Not really.

Electrons do have mass, but a device powered by an electric current will generally have the electrons flowing out at the same rate that they flow in.

Re: Why is electricity so hard to understand? (1989)

#152
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intuitive but wrong (and doggedly persistent) idea #1: "electric current is moving electrons". It is moving photons, exciting (largely) stationary electrons. I can't stress how crucial overcoming that misconception was when I was doing EE.

Is this why my EE prof once said, a metal cabel is like a fiber cabel, it trasfers EM energy but at a different wave length? This sounded like he went mad to me...

Think of the behavior of RF transmission lines. RF is after all just long wavelength light or EM waves.

So obviously a piece of pipe is a circular waveguide and it works more or less like optical fiber.

It helps if you know how optical fiber works, across a boundary with a big enough difference in speed of light in the material, you get total internal reflection and it bounces back in.

Now people are pretty chill with circular waveguide as a transmission line, but there are numerous other schemes and eventually you end up with microstripline or twin-lead that TVs used to use or eventually one wire Goubau line.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_transmission_line

Once you're chill with a zillion small steps from circular waveguide to G-line, wait, G-line is what your prof said that initially sounded ridiculous, but its not so ridiculous after all, with some new perspective.

Re: Why is electricity so hard to understand? (1989)

#153
post #12

I think the main reason is that we can't physically interact with it with our hands. We don't play with it as children, the same way we do running water, throwing rocks, etc. Anything that you can't manipulate or play around with is very hard to develop an intuitive sense of. It takes a lot of study and imagination.

I a sense, I DID play with electricity as a kid. My father was an Electrical Engineer and a Ham Radio operator, so we had "stuff" around the house. I learned to solder at a young age. Some time ago, I realized that one of the best toys I had as a kid was the controller for my HO train set. It had a Speed (voltage) lever and a Forward/Reverse lever. Basically, it was a safe, variable voltage DC power supply. I could p…

But even then it's not the same because you can't actually see the electricity. You can only see second order effects.

Re: Why is electricity so hard to understand? (1989)

#154
post #143

Maybe this is the right occasion to re-ask a question I asked some years ago on stack exchange, but (despite several people trying their best to explain) still failed to understand the answer to. So: does electricity have 'mass'? What I mean is, when current flows, is there a transfer of electrons (or something else) from the power source to whatever it is send to? And is there a difference between AC and DC? The con…

Information has mass. Not much. Surely charge on a dram capacitor is s bit (oh the pun) of energy and energy is mass.

An excellent example of electron movement is a DC current in a metal plating tank or refining tank. Every atom of aluminum or copper or plated anything took the movement of precisely one electron (simplification because there are some non-electroplating methods for some base/plate combos, but yeah pretty much aluminium is a block of solidified electricity)

Re: Why is electricity so hard to understand? (1989)

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first chapter explained it well. There are three different concepts that were all thrown under the umbrella term "electricity". >..little use by educators of the wind/sound electrical analogy: >AIR is a physical substance. >SOUND is a wave that propagates rapidly through a volume of air. >WIND is a flowing motion of air already present. >ELECTRIC CHARGES are a physical substance. >ELECTRIC ENERGY is a wave that t…

> ">ELECTRIC ENERGY is a wave that travels via a column of charge." I'm not an expert when it comes to electricity, so someone correct me if I'm wrong, but one thing that has made sense to me when it comes to trying to understand electricity is that not all electrons have equal potential for work. When studying electricity, you're often told the charge of an electron as a fixed quantity. However, if I've understood c…

How significant is this when you work at the level of Coulombs (high count of charges) ?

Re: Why is electricity so hard to understand? (1989)

#156
Hmm. I learned about E&M theory from Halliday and Resnick, and the practical stuff from Horowitz and Winfield (The Art of Electronics) and they were pretty precise about distinctions between electrons, holes, charge, flow of charge, and so forth. Sounds like I dodged a bullet by not being drawn too much to electronics as a youth, waiting instead to learn about it as a college physics major.

Re: Why is electricity so hard to understand? (1989)

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the linked notes: I never really understood capacitors until I started trying to construct proper water-analogies for them. Then I discovered that my electronics and physics classes had sent me down a dead-end path with their garbage about "capacitors store electric charge." Since my discovery, I've gained significantly more expertise in circuit design, which leads me to a sad thought. Maybe the more skilled of…

Not really sure I like that link. He seems to suggest that capacitors store "energy" instead of charge, which is just as ambiguous really. It's not like there is some sort of energy particle either. Of course what's really happening is that you are creating an electric potential between two plates. It's true that the net charge is the same, but you are moving electrons from one plate and forcing them (doing work) int…

> water does not attract other water in any way

Um ... once we've cleared up all the misconceptions about electricity, we might want to move on to this other thing called gravity :-)

The usual reason that people are mislead by "water" analogies—more precisely, the analogy between height and electric potential—is because they misunderstood gravity to start with. If you start by writing Newton's law and Coulomb's law side by side, and develop the analogy in a precise way, smart students will be able to debug their own fallacies.

For example, a capacitor does have a precise gravitational analog, where you have two tanks floating in outer space, and water gets sucked into them by gravitational attraction. Once you understand that, you can think about the effect of removing the minus sign from the gravitational energy law, and about the things you can do with two types of charge, but can't do with only one type of mass.

Re: Why is electricity so hard to understand? (1989)

#158
post #8

Could someone write the same kind of article for chemistry ? That would help me to accept the fact that I didn't get it at all :-) Oh, while you're at it : accounting :-)

Accounting in 8 steps, 1. Memorize this: Assets + Expenses = Liabilities + Capital + Income 2. Everything is positive, no negative numbers! 3. For every transaction, Total Debits = Total Credits 4. "Credit" is source of money, "debit" is destination of money 5. Assets and expenses increase with debits 6. Liabilities, capital, and income increase with credits 7. Expenses and income may only be increased (debited & cre…

I suspect I'm about to regret this, but here comes the electricity analogies for accounting, the appendix to your 8 lines.

A balance sheet is like charge on an array of loosely connected capacitors (or batteries). I know I got a pile of electrons (and holes) stacked up somewheres, and the balance sheet shows where. All "accounting circuits" are electrically neutral and the number of electrons and holes on your balance sheet MUST match.

A income sheet is like looking at the individual cell results from a solar array in parallel. So you got 10 aH out of that entire array, now which cells contributed more or less of their share, and which battery cells soaked up more or less than their share of charge?

The cash flow sheet tells you how fast electricity energy moved, essentially a power. So your 99 watt-hour laptop battery holds 99 watt-hours, but how many times did you fill and empty it in a year, how many times did you turn over the energy in the battery?

Once you learn op-amps you can do some hideous analog computing analogies, but don't call up what ye can't put down, so I'm not even trying that. So a financial derivative is like a sample and hold ckt connected to a four quadrant analog multiplier and a log/antilog ckt, or maybe this is just too far of an analogy not to be nonsense.

The purpose of accounting (aside from mere control fraud prevention, at least optimistically) is to squirt out some ratios to help make management decisions. Much like the transistor collector current is not terribly interesting nor is the emitter current at a large enough scale, but the ratio is exciting because back in the old days people made management decisions to select one transistor over the other based on the ratio of those currents, which is essentially how good of an amplifier it is. Much as income statment vs cash flow ratio tells you a lot about a retail establishment compared to its peers, how long "stuff" is sitting on shelves before getting sold. That current ratio is a bipolar transistor alpha ratio which no one uses anymore. Kind of like how people used to make investment decisions based on the ratios in the famous Graham and Dodd book, but no one has invested on fundamental ratios in, gosh I donno, 30 years? Its been a long credit bubble and fundamentals don't matter in a credit bubble.

I have no idea what a credit bubble is in EE terms. Some twisted analogy of trapped charge on a Teflon dielectric resulting in an integrator getting saturated eventually, but until it does the ride is pretty exciting.

I would extend this post with my traditional HN automobile analogy but I'm not sure there's enough liquor in the world to achieve that level of debauchery. So ... Keynesian economics policy sees the role of the government as like an electronic speed control on the automobile, uh, kinda.

Re: Why is electricity so hard to understand? (1989)

#159
post #38

It looks like interesting content, but I got a little confused by the writing style and general layout. A more succinct, clearly defined structure would help me a lot. Each topic could be clearer on what is wrong and how is the right way. It would help a lot just to start with a clear: "What is the right definition of the word electricity?". Then, maybe a "What is "electrical phenomena" and some examples". "Correct d…

It turns out that this is not a good link to be starting with: see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12901346

Much better. I'll spend some on it later

Re: Why is electricity so hard to understand? (1989)

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't agree with what you wrote and maybe I can explain why. Springs store inches. You measure displacement in inches. Spring constant is just the value that relates stored inches to available force. (You can swap roles of force and displacement if you wish, the point is the same. It sounds bad to say springs store force or displacement, to me.)

But inches are an abstract measurement of distance. Electrons are a thing. (Well, depending on who you ask... no one has ever seen one, and some people have claimed half-jokingly there's only one electron in the entire universe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-electron_universe .)

So, you're saying that capacitors store electrons?!

Debunking this particular conception was the whole point of my capacitor article http://amasci.com/emotor/cap1.html

Capacitors "store" electrons, like springs "store" steel, or rubber bands "store" rubber. A charged capacitor has exactly the same number of electrons as an "uncharged" capacitor.

When "charging" a capacitor, charge is forced into one terminal, and exactly equal charge comes out of the other terminal. No electrons build up inside, nor are placed into it. They've just been moved around inside, same as the steel spring, or the spherical tank in the water analogy.

What then do capacitors store? EXACTLY! That's the questions that students should be asking. They won't think to ask it, if they've been taught that capacitors are like buckets full of electrons. Well, what does a steel spring store? Or a stretched rubber band? KG of steel or rubber? Nope. Capacitors store joules, not coulombs.

The above concepts open the way to unifying several ideas: capacitors store charge in the same way that inductors store charge! In both components, energy is stored, as e-fields in the case of capacitors, b-fields in the case of conductors.

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