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Trade votes with voters from swing states

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Re: Trade votes with voters from swing states

#11

Post by bobwaycott »

drakonandor wrote: post #9
howItsDone123 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this a legal strategy? It seems illegal.

Definitely illegal. However, it'll get a pass like everything else illegal done this election.

This is definitively legal. The Ninth Circuit ruled so in 2007. You're making a strong claim, and you cannot back this claim up at all.

Vote-swapping is not a new thing. There's even case law that supports it as a clear exercise of one's First Amendment rights. See Porter v. Bowen. You might not like it, but that has no bearing on its legality.

Re: Trade votes with voters from swing states

#12

Post by jack9 »

bobwaycott wrote: post #5
howItsDone123 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this a legal strategy? It seems illegal.

On what grounds are you thinking there's anything illegal happening here?

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/net_election...

Technically, tampering. Yet-to-be-adjudicated in the same way as someone doing something illegal doesn't always get prosecuted because stare decisis (or political backlash) is so crazy-overused that you rather avoid going forward than lose on technnicalities or by a small margin.

Re: Trade votes with voters from swing states

#13

Post by bobwaycott »

jack9 wrote: post #12
bobwaycott wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On what grounds are you thinking there's anything illegal happening here?

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/net_election... Technically, tampering. Yet-to-be-adjudicated in the same way as someone doing something illegal doesn't always get prosecuted because stare decisis (or political backlash) is so crazy-overused that you rather avoid going forward than lose on technnicalities or by a small margin.

Swapping your vote is not technically tampering. And the practice has been adjudicated. See Porter v. Bowen. Of course, since that was only an Appeals Court ruling and not SCOTUS, the legality is strictly dependent upon your state and whether it has laws on the books expressly prohibiting swapping. But, those laws could be challenged if one desired to put Porter v. Bowen to the test.

PS: The article you linked dates from 2000. Porter v. Bowen was in 2007. You really ought to check the dates on things you read. A lot has changed in 16 years. Look at Citizens United.

Re: Trade votes with voters from swing states

#15

Post by Vaskivo »

howItsDone123 wrote: post #4
bobwaycott wrote: post #2

Wondering how/if this strategy could help voters in safely Republican states who wish to make a dent in that safety.

Is this a legal strategy? It seems illegal.

According to Popehat, it's legal.

https://popehat.com/2016/11/05/randazza-vote-swapping-trump-...

Re: Trade votes with voters from swing states

#16

Post by moftz »

x1798DE wrote: post #6

This is not as stupid an idea as I thought from the headline, but it still suffers from the problem that (for good reason), there is no way for a position to prove who they voted for. As such, both parties are strictly better off cheating by saying they want to trade and voting for their own preferred candidate instead.

The article says they met up and mailed their absentee ballots together. Maybe the trading sites could use something like a video recording of someone checking a box on their ballot and sealing it up or do a recording of them in the booth casting their ballot (state law permitting). There is still some trust involved, both people can't really vote at the same time. You have to trust the other guy will go through with it after you cast your vote first but it's no different than buying and trading used goods on forums. Although on forums, people are usually making exchanges more often than once every 4 years so someone can build a trustworthy reputation.

Re: Trade votes with voters from swing states

#17

Post by drakonandor »

bobwaycott wrote: post #11
drakonandor wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely illegal. However, it'll get a pass like everything else illegal done this election.

This is definitively legal. The Ninth Circuit ruled so in 2007. You're making a strong claim, and you cannot back this claim up at all. Vote-swapping is not a new thing. There's even case law that supports it as a clear exercise of one's First Amendment rights. See Porter v. Bowen . You might not like it, but that has no bearing on its legality.

That site is operating outside in regions outside the Ninth Circuit's jurisdiction, including in places where it is definitively illegal.

Apparently I'm not the only one making strong claims today.

Re: Trade votes with voters from swing states

#18

Post by bobwaycott »

drakonandor wrote: post #17
bobwaycott wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is definitively legal. The Ninth Circuit ruled so in 2007. You're making a strong claim, and you cannot back this claim up at all. Vote-swapping is not a new thing. There's even case law that supports it as a clear exercise of one's First Amendment rights. See Porter v. Bowen . You might not like it, but that has no bearing on its legality.

That site is operating outside in regions outside the Ninth Circuit's jurisdiction, including in places where it is definitively illegal. Apparently I'm not the only one making strong claims today.

So, you're just doubling down on your claims without providing any kind of counter evidence? Your initial statement was vote-swapping was definitely illegal. Now, you're walking back and revising to say it is definitively illegal in certain regions.

What jurisdictions outside the Ninth Circuit have expressly forbidden the practice of vote-swapping? I've performed a cursory search of US laws against vote-pairing and vote-swapping. I have found nothing. Please, share your knowledge of what parts of the US have enacted legislation that makes non-pecuniary pairing/swapping illegal.

Based on what evidence I can find, I'm making no strong claims. Please point me in the right direction to revise my understanding, if it is indeed in error.

Re: Trade votes with voters from swing states

#20

Post by x1798DE »

moftz wrote: post #16
x1798DE wrote: post #6

This is not as stupid an idea as I thought from the headline, but it still suffers from the problem that (for good reason), there is no way for a position to prove who they voted for. As such, both parties are strictly better off cheating by saying they want to trade and voting for their own preferred candidate instead.

The article says they met up and mailed their absentee ballots together. Maybe the trading sites could use something like a video recording of someone checking a box on their ballot and sealing it up or do a recording of them in the booth casting their ballot (state law permitting). There is still some trust involved, both people can't really vote at the same time. You have to trust the other guy will go through with…

Yeah, mailing in your absentee ballots together could work - I assume that the people on apps aren't doing that because it would be difficult for most people to travel to another state.

That said, anything that allows you to prove who you voted for is a flaw in the design of the voting system anyway, so to the extent that there are loopholes that allow this, one would hope that they will be fixed.

As for reputation - reputation systems rely on the ability to verify that something has already been completed. If you order something online and never receive it, you are able to complain and cause reputational damage to the seller. In the case of vote-swapping, you shouldn't ever be able to know whether or not the other person voted the way they said they did, so you never actually know that the other person is untrustworthy.

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