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Video Games Are Boring

gamesindustry.biz

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Re: Video Games Are Boring

#151
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, agreed, I was condescending, and I will do better next time. To be honest, I've learned a lot about how to post civilly over the years on HN, and I still make mistakes. My post above is not an example of my best work. ;) But - answer me honestly - do you think what I said is less accurate or more condescending than what @tnones said about Brie? Do you think my comment was out of proportion or very different in t…

I think your comment was a little more condescending because the other comment invited a response (just from a non-feminist perspective) while your argument pre-emptively dismissed every possible response. I also think it was less accurate because I believe the feminism angle is a red herring. Like, suppose I complained that videogames are rarely marketed to poor people like me who can't afford modern hardware (when…

> I also think it was less accurate because I believe the feminism angle is a red herring.

How does that reflect on me? I didn't bring up feminism, @tnones did.

> Like, suppose I complained that videogames are rarely marketed to poor people ... maybe I should support small indie game studios instead of complaining

I don't understand where you're going with this. There is a class bias in the video games market, as with more or less our entire economy. That is probably much better documented than the sexism bias. But games cost money to make and money to buy, and they're a luxury entertainment product, so I'm not sure what there is to do about it, not do I see how that changes anything regarding cultural sexism.

> it's only her discourse that is, in my opinion, holding us back as gamers.

What did she say that is holding you back? How is it holding you back or working against gamers? Did we read the same article? She's trying to appeal to more gamers, not fewer, she's trying to help people who don't current like games start to like them and see games the way gamers see games... I'm confused.

Re: Video Games Are Boring

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that games are made for guys is in itself sexist, is it not? They're just games, and you're free to interpret them however you'd like.

Only if the idea that tampons are made for women is sexist. It's just an absorbent object, and you're free to use it how you like. These products weren't things that exploded from a volcano, or discovered in the center of an apple pulled from a tree. They were created by people to attract other people enough to surrender cash.

I wish this were a joke. A tampon is unambiguously designed for women. Video games are designed for those who enjoy them.

Re: Video Games Are Boring

#153
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moat modern games are made to sell. If the buyers are looking for X then it makes sense that a business should provide them with X to turn the most profit. If females, or anyone, wants separate gameplay mechanics then they need to reward that with cold cash to build an economy and incentivize creation. Else it's all just words and forcing a square block into a circle hole. Cash is the only way to lasting change (see…

I get it, I fully agree. That said: the industry is really built around conventions and culture. Guys making games for guys. Marketing to guys. The entire culture skews guys. Of course they might have a hard time 'selling to girls'. This might seem a bit 'sexist' or whatever to use a 'fashion' example, but just as a crude idea ... maybe a social game that made you a 'designer' - and you could design fashion/clothing…

>That said: the industry is really built around conventions and culture. Guys making games for guys. Marketing to guys. The entire culture skews guys.

Then there is roughly 50% of the population not being serviced. Hire some female talent, get some investments on your easy-to-market product, and make yourself rich via a successful business catering to the female demographic of gamers.

If one fails in such a large, uncatered to market, it is one of three things:

    1) Failed marketing
    2) Failed product
    3) Your assumptions were wrong
I always see talk about how things need to change - but nobody wants to put their money where their mouth is. If the problem really is a chicken/egg problem then hatch an egg.

The problem: There is no large female demographic of gamers for devs to market to. There is no large female demographic of gamers because there are no devs marketing/making games for them.

The problem as I see it is that nobody pays attention to games like Neopets or Candy Crush skewing female. Girls and woman are marketed to by entirely different genres of games. My money is on the fact they are more interested in the games they're buying and playing and that the industry has enough money and research to have a good idea of what they're doing.

Re: Video Games Are Boring

#154
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that games are made for guys is in itself sexist, is it not? They're just games, and you're free to interpret them however you'd like.

I don't know if it's sexist. If it's a fact, it's just an observation. Facts should ideally not be sexist (although I understand the can of worms such a statement might open). I'm inclined to believe that gaming in general is tilted towards the things that men like (whether culturally or biologically). And I'd welcome game producers/financiers/whatever to invest in games that offer things that traditionally non-gamer…

I am of the opinion that men and women are biologically different, and this leads to psychological differences that create social and cultural differences between the genders. However, unlike many, I don't believe that the differences between the genders are evil, and I don't believe that we should be breaking down all of those differences in the name of equality.

With that said, if you see potential in the market, by all means make a video game targeted towards everyone & get rich. That is your right.

Re: Video Games Are Boring

#155
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get it, I fully agree. That said: the industry is really built around conventions and culture. Guys making games for guys. Marketing to guys. The entire culture skews guys. Of course they might have a hard time 'selling to girls'. This might seem a bit 'sexist' or whatever to use a 'fashion' example, but just as a crude idea ... maybe a social game that made you a 'designer' - and you could design fashion/clothing…

>That said: the industry is really built around conventions and culture. Guys making games for guys. Marketing to guys. The entire culture skews guys. Then there is roughly 50% of the population not being serviced. Hire some female talent, get some investments on your easy-to-market product, and make yourself rich via a successful business catering to the female demographic of gamers. If one fails in such a large, un…

Why is it that female devs would be required to make a game that women would like?

Re: Video Games Are Boring

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have very different fantasy lives. Some people have fantasy lives that revolve around social relationships. Others have fantasy lives that revolve around power-tripping and murder-hoboing. But I suspect that the former are actually much more common than the latter. It's a fantasy life because it is not actually reality! I always wondered why people play Guitar Hero when they could just practice the guitar inst…

I can't imagine realistic social gaming given today's technology. Relationships are complicated - much more complicated than game graphics. A system that accurately modelled human relationships would probably need to be within throwing distance of passing the Turing test. One reason the industry keeps churning through the same ideas is because they're relatively tractable. Graphics, physics, texturing etc, are all so…

Eve Online is the game that no one has mentioned but that keeps coming to mind while I read this thread. It's the closest I've seen to a realistic social video game. When I saw your comment, I finally had to post something about it in this thread.

Like real life, doing anything meaningful in Eve is going to take a lot of time and planning. In some games, you can grind to max level in a matter of days or weeks. In Eve, max level is more than 15 years (roughly speaking). If you choose to focus your training on one activity, you will be weak in another until you put in the time to train it as well. Because of this, you are always behind your elders on an individual basis. This means that cooperation with other players is invaluable - no, imperative, if you want to make your mark or become effective quickly. Because of this, real social skills are incredibly useful. (Just like how, in the real world, networking is almost everything.)

Trust is the biggest currency in the game - trust in your partner not to skim from your share of the profits, trust in your CEO to recruit quality people and not traitors, trust in your fleet commander to recognize good vs suicidal engagements, and trust in your alliance leader to keep diplomatic ties strong. However, because "it's a game" and creating alts is easy (and incentivised), it's incredibly easy to trick and be tricked, and reprisals against bad actors are often very difficult to enforce.

So, there is this constant tension between the inherent insecurity of trusting anyone and the huge power available to savvy individuals who are willing and able to persuade and inspire and cajole and threaten until they are at the head of an army 18,000 accounts strong. On top of this, the free market economy means that a player is not limited to pursuing combat power, but also economic power - opening up avenues of play to people who aren't particularly interested in blowing up spaceships but who very much like to think about micro and macro economics.

You mention Second Life; I have never played it, but I imagine that it suffered because of the lack of real conflict / meaningful objectives / the lack of mechanics and/or enforcement of limiting policies designed to keep players comfortable and happy. I.e., no trolling, griefing, market manipulation, etc.

Eve Online is famous for the near-purity of its sandbox nature. It's not perfect - there are still actions that can get you banned from Eve - but it is much more permissive than any other MMO I've played or heard of. When Eve players appear in other games in organized groups (Black Desert Online, Elite Dangerous, Star Citizen - at least on the forums), chaos, forum tears and often bannings ensue. The content in Eve is extracted from other players; the NPC quests coded by the developers are the stuff of jokes.

Actions in Eve have permanence. Ships that blow up are gone, along with their cargo. There are no safe spaces. Names cannot be changed. The years-long account training process discourages constant recycling of "main" characters, so names are remembered for what they have done. A famous reputation blown by an injudicious action or an momentary lapse in opsec is forever tainted.

There are some interesting results from this stew of influences.

One such result that I'm often reminded of is that democracy isn't effective at producing a stable Eve entity. People have tried it, and the bureaucracy/middle-management leads to slow decision making, which leads to playing catch-up and eventually to member bleed and implosion. One fairly effective model is anarchy - a group of experienced members that understand each other quite well, are are all very capable on their own, and all "find content" often and make the others aware of it without asking for permission or making excuse for misplays. A couple of groups with ties to 4chan operate very much like this, unsurprisingly - including one of the most feared (but not even close to largest) alliances in the game. Another, more common model is the dictatorship - a personality cult, where one member makes the calls and steers the group according to his will. He might have an inner circle that he delegates duties to or receives counsel from, but there is no question who is in charge, internally or externally. This group is nimble, able to react quickly and operate in a united fashion, but the responsibility often burns out the leader. With the leader not logging in and no organic transition to an equally respected replacement, the magic is lost and the group dissolves.

Another result is the remarkable approach of an Eve player's duties to "real life" duties. In Eve, one interviews people, one researches people's work histories, one hires people and one fires people. In Eve, one reviews weekly, monthly and quarterly economic reports, collect and pay taxes, and audits franchise managers. In Eve, one configures up forums and websites and chat servers and SSO authentication systems and automated alarm systems. In Eve, one inserts watermarks and cross-references IP logs and administers barium meal tests and more, as means to maintain infosec. Some people say they would never play Eve, because it isn't really a game, it's a job. Some people play Eve precisely because they thrive on real challenge. Some people do just fine playing Eve to blow up ships and never do a single one of the things above.

Another result is the overall tendency towards stagnation and lack of meaningful conflict. I'm not sure yet if this is simply because of the current game mechanics or because of a larger, systemic flaw that video games cannot inherently overcome (or because of human nature). Most of the game map is "nullsec", space open for the taking to any alliance of any size that wants to plant a flag there. At first, this was motivation enough. Later, people needed a reason to take and hold space, which usually meant "it needs to be profitable to hold space." When the devs made holding space very profitable, nullsec alliances started to make non-invasion pacts with their neighbors. They'd fight as fleets of ships, but not attack holdings. It made sense financially; people were making enough money with the space they had; no need to evict the neighbor. Trying to do so would start a war, and that would be more painful than making fat stacks at home. Eventually one coalition of alliances held half the map and another coalition held the other, and only play fights were happening. The devs made a number of mechanics changes in an attempt to encourage balkanization, and that, combined with an unprecedented announcement by an fabulously wealthy player (he made his money from a player-owned and developed in-game casino, btw) to make essentially limitless funds available to anyone who attacked the leading alliance of one of those super-coalitions lead to a large breakup in the nullsec geopolitical landscape. Unfortunately, now it appears that many feel it is no longer worth holding space under the new mechanics (attacking is easy, defending is hard, burnout is real). So if it is too hard, no one plays, and if it is too easy, everyone works out deals and it becomes boring.

So, it turns out that in the game with some of the most freeing mechanics and policies, people still get bored. The practical strategy (from a game design p.o.v.) is to tweak the game back and forth looking for the sweet spot where it is fun, but not too hard. From a theoretical standpoint, it's hard to know whether or not video games are fundamentally and inevitably boring, or whether a perfect game has simply not yet been created.

>realistically, if you do that you're not competing with other games, but with dating apps, job interviews, and the real social world.

Nail on the head.

Re: Video Games Are Boring

#157
post #150
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, agreed, I was condescending, and I will do better next time. To be honest, I've learned a lot about how to post civilly over the years on HN, and I still make mistakes. My post above is not an example of my best work. ;) But - answer me honestly - do you think what I said is less accurate or more condescending than what @tnones said about Brie? Do you think my comment was out of proportion or very different in t…

Do you think my comment was out of proportion or very different in tone to what he said? I think there is a noticeable tone difference, assuming one is sensitive to these sorts of things. He dismissed Brie's words as "typical feminist schtick" While this is true, as a whole if you compare his first couple of sentences to yours, his remains much more closely related to the overall subject matter. He dismisses the auth…

You're right, I hear you, and I appreciate the thoughtful analysis. I could have skipped the first line entirely and my comment would have been better for it. Notes for next time. I'm taking the punishment and leaving it there.

My mistake was letting @tnones' comment bother me and replying while irritated.

So let's get back to the subject matter. Is there a gender gap in games, and what should or should not be done about it? Is @tnones right that there's no evidence of a gap?

Re: Video Games Are Boring

#158
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your comment was a little more condescending because the other comment invited a response (just from a non-feminist perspective) while your argument pre-emptively dismissed every possible response. I also think it was less accurate because I believe the feminism angle is a red herring. Like, suppose I complained that videogames are rarely marketed to poor people like me who can't afford modern hardware (when…

> I also think it was less accurate because I believe the feminism angle is a red herring. How does that reflect on me? I didn't bring up feminism, @tnones did. > Like, suppose I complained that videogames are rarely marketed to poor people ... maybe I should support small indie game studios instead of complaining I don't understand where you're going with this. There is a class bias in the video games market, as wit…

I know that part didn't reflect on you. You asked about my opinion on the accuracy, and the thing we were trying to be accurate about was OP's article, right?

You know how men make more money than women? And how white people make more money than black people? We should expect then that more white men will buy luxury goods like videogames, right? No additional sexism needs to be postulated, is what I'm saying. You are double-counting the evidence.

> She's trying to appeal to more gamers, not fewer, she's trying to help people who don't current like games start to like them and see games the way gamers see games.

We all are. We are on the same side, some people just think the author is doing it wrong. I myself think the author is doing most things right (she is an actual game designer working on fixing the problem she complains about), but her complaints sound misguided and superfluous. They don't match with some people's experiences of trying to persuade their friends to play games, which means she was generalizing from a small sample and her theory might be wrong. (not the practice, though, since she is an actual game designer)

Re: Video Games Are Boring

#159
post #28

I really miss gameplay driven games rather than presentation/story driven games. I think both are great, but I really enjoy the technical intricacies of street fighter or mega-man games.

I very much enjoy clean, simple platformers with interesting mechanics and a minimum of story.

I spent hours playing N v1.4 in grade school, and the update, v2.0 is free online [0]. There is also a more reworked version, N++, on Steam that I can't vouch for but is probably good. There is also Dustforce [1], which has some very unique mechanics and is on Steam. Super Meat Boy [2] was inspired in part by N and got a lot of press. It has the same fundamental gameplay that N does (everything kills you, run and wall jump with physics) but not written with Flash and with some bells and whistles (I still like N and its physics better).

Also in the bucket of skill-based, storyless games is Devil Daggers [3], though it is first person, not a platformer. Some people love it, some hate it. I found it very compelling.

[0] http://www.thewayoftheninja.org/

[1] http://dustforce.com/videos

[2] http://supermeatboy.com/

[3] http://devildaggers.com/about

Re: Video Games Are Boring

#160
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you played Dwarf Fortress at all? I'd be interested to know your thoughts on that.

No, I'm not sure I've ever heard of it, but I'll check it out. I played thousands upon thousands of hours of Quake 3 back in the day. Possibly my favorite game recently was FEZ. Journey, mentioned in the article, was beautiful. These days I'm as much a sucker for online Boggle or Sudoku as any console game.

FYI, Dwarf Fortress is an ASCII-only roguelike, and the learning curve is as steep as the graphics are primitive. But the emergent gameplay is amazing.

If the inconsistent UI or graphics give you pause, I'd suggest taking a look at Rimworld, currently in Early Access on Steam (or available directly from the developer's site). It has some of the deep qualities of DF but is a bit more forgiving.

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