Video Games Are Boring • Hacker News Board

Re: Video Games Are Boring

#141

Post by mercer » Mon, Nov 07, 2016, 5:21 PM UTC

apozem wrote: post #13

arkitaip wrote: post #8

This captures a lot of what I've been feeling lately. I can't stand most games, they just make me anxious and I will quit playing them after a few hours or even minutes. Too much stress and surface experiences has had me looking in the other direction. Take, for example, GTA 5. I've probably spent more hours riding cars and bikes in GTA5's beautiful countryside and outback than playing actual missions. Just hours and…

This is exactly how I felt about Red Dead Redemption. Years after beating the game, I couldn't tell you much about any individual mission. I do remember staring at the in-game sunset as it cast shadows across the open prairie and thinking, "Wow."

I was about to recommend RDR, because I feel the same way about it. I intentionally avoid taking the 'fast way' to places and ride my horse everywhere. I gather herbs, hunt, take on side-quests, or just enjoy the ride. It's very zen.

Re: Video Games Are Boring

#142

Post by FullMtlAlcoholc » Mon, Nov 07, 2016, 5:23 PM UTC

edblarney wrote: post #115

edblarney wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Though I agree with what you say - I would say that the conventions of games are gender oriented. They are made by guys, for guys, and girls can play along. The 'mission orientation' - the 'guns/violence' - and 'sports' - while not exclusively a guy thing - they are definitely guy-leaning. Let me say it differently: if you took a totally random sample of girls and gave them each $100M to go off and build the 'best ga…

To add: I'm not remotely making a political point, I'm not necessarily supporting the thesis of article, and I'm saying nothing about 'women in gaming' yada yada. I'm just saying: I think that especially console game themes are generally a little gender-skewed.

Fully agreed. I did a stint @ EA a while back. At least amongst our team, our culture made state school party frats look like enlightened ones.

One of the many "games/pranks" other devs would play was called cubicle cropduster. As you walked through the cubicle jungle, one would cropdust a colleague's area by silently evacuating a generous amount of methane.

When you work people like beasts of burden, dont be surprised when the behavior becomes more, ahem, primal

Re: Video Games Are Boring

#143

Post by dahart » Mon, Nov 07, 2016, 5:23 PM UTC

saint_fiasco wrote: post #130

dahart wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry about that, I sometimes do get condescending when I feel strongly and am pretty certain that I'm right. It is a problem, and I do want to learn how to make a strong point and not be condescending. Do you feel like my language was more condescending than the comment I replied to? I reacted to what I felt was more or less outright sexist language. "There is nothing to support the author's typical feminist schtick…

"Does that comment scare you? You sound very defensive. I'm sorry to inform you that we do have a discourse problem that is well documented, and you have identified yourself as part of the problem." That was your comment. I changed a couple of words so it would look like it was directed at you. Calling people defensive is very condescending and shitty, because it leaves people in a position where they have to choose…

Yes, agreed, I was condescending, and I will do better next time. To be honest, I've learned a lot about how to post civilly over the years on HN, and I still make mistakes. My post above is not an example of my best work. ;)

But - answer me honestly - do you think what I said is less accurate or more condescending than what @tnones said about Brie? Do you think my comment was out of proportion or very different in tone to what he said? He dismissed Brie's words as "typical feminist schtick" when she was relating her own feelings and talking about video games, and when she clearly has mountains more experience in the industry than @tnones. Do you think that was fair and not shitty, what @tnones said?

Re: Video Games Are Boring

#144

Post by pessimizer » Mon, Nov 07, 2016, 5:26 PM UTC

brador wrote: post #117

edblarney wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Though I agree with what you say - I would say that the conventions of games are gender oriented. They are made by guys, for guys, and girls can play along. The 'mission orientation' - the 'guns/violence' - and 'sports' - while not exclusively a guy thing - they are definitely guy-leaning. Let me say it differently: if you took a totally random sample of girls and gave them each $100M to go off and build the 'best ga…

Moat modern games are made to sell. If the buyers are looking for X then it makes sense that a business should provide them with X to turn the most profit. If females, or anyone, wants separate gameplay mechanics then they need to reward that with cold cash to build an economy and incentivize creation. Else it's all just words and forcing a square block into a circle hole. Cash is the only way to lasting change (see…

Chicken-egg problem. You can't figure out what different people would like if you keep churning out the same things that once attracted a particular audience over and over again, just bigger and with more pixels. Change is the only way to attract newer audiences (see the mobile space for example.)

Re: Video Games Are Boring

#145

Post by mercer » Mon, Nov 07, 2016, 5:31 PM UTC

0xcde4c3db wrote: post #31

> She didn't like that there is a snake that can kill you. It's not that it is too hard, it's that she is deeply uninterested in being attacked in a game. I think this hints at a big part of the problem. When we frame something as a game, we tend to evoke the concepts of winning and losing. The most brutal and obvious (lazy?) way of implementing that is to turn it into "kill or be killed". And that brutal, obvious, v…

Part of the problem is that it's easier to implement a competition/kill/survive mechanism than to add realistic interpersonal social dynamics. If you want to avoid competition or at least killing things, you'll have to be a lot more creative.

It's (relatively) much easier to find an audience for a film or book that is focused on dialogue, social interactions, and whatnot, than it is to do so for a game. I applaud efforts in this area, but I can see how it's easier to go for kill/win/compete style games.

Re: Video Games Are Boring

#146

Post by mercer » Mon, Nov 07, 2016, 5:33 PM UTC

dahart wrote: post #143

saint_fiasco wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Does that comment scare you? You sound very defensive. I'm sorry to inform you that we do have a discourse problem that is well documented, and you have identified yourself as part of the problem." That was your comment. I changed a couple of words so it would look like it was directed at you. Calling people defensive is very condescending and shitty, because it leaves people in a position where they have to choose…

Yes, agreed, I was condescending, and I will do better next time. To be honest, I've learned a lot about how to post civilly over the years on HN, and I still make mistakes. My post above is not an example of my best work. ;) But - answer me honestly - do you think what I said is less accurate or more condescending than what @tnones said about Brie? Do you think my comment was out of proportion or very different in t…

For my part, I'd agree with you. But I also have to admit that my tolerance for 'typical feminist schtick' is much lower than my tolerance for those who question it.

I'm fully aware that this is not fair, and I'm trying to compensate, but that's how it is for me right now. It's much harder to challenge something than to (somewhat callously) reject it, and that sucks.

Re: Video Games Are Boring

#147

Post by mercer » Mon, Nov 07, 2016, 5:35 PM UTC

grosbisou wrote: post #21

I stopped playing video games like 10 years ago for the same reason stated in this article: I couldn't finish any new game I started. But I recently started to play again after years of no touching one. I weirdly enough I love it again. I can play solo games, enjoy them and finish them. I can play online games and enjoy the competition. I think a lot has to do with how people cannot focus anymore on anything more tha…

Same here. There's a wealth of amazing games that I haven't played, considering that I stopped being an active gamer somewhere during the GameCube 'era'.

But in the same way that I seek out 'old movies' carefully, I'm very selective in my gaming choices. Currently I'm working my way through Red Dead Redemption and the Avernum series, but a large amount of games from the Xbox 360 area don't appeal to me at all anymore, for example.

Re: Video Games Are Boring

#148

Post by dota » Mon, Nov 07, 2016, 5:38 PM UTC

saint_fiasco wrote: post #130

dahart wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry about that, I sometimes do get condescending when I feel strongly and am pretty certain that I'm right. It is a problem, and I do want to learn how to make a strong point and not be condescending. Do you feel like my language was more condescending than the comment I replied to? I reacted to what I felt was more or less outright sexist language. "There is nothing to support the author's typical feminist schtick…

"Does that comment scare you? You sound very defensive. I'm sorry to inform you that we do have a discourse problem that is well documented, and you have identified yourself as part of the problem." That was your comment. I changed a couple of words so it would look like it was directed at you. Calling people defensive is very condescending and shitty, because it leaves people in a position where they have to choose…

I find the entire quoted line to be unnecessary. The initial question "Does this article scare you?" doesn't serve a purpose, it's just filler. I wouldn't expect the other person to really respond to such a question, nor do I think the conversation should be or is trying to be centered on the question and its possible answer. The post would have been better off not being framed by that question and instead just dive right into the actual arguments.

Re: Video Games Are Boring

#149

Post by saint_fiasco » Mon, Nov 07, 2016, 5:50 PM UTC

dahart wrote: post #143

saint_fiasco wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Does that comment scare you? You sound very defensive. I'm sorry to inform you that we do have a discourse problem that is well documented, and you have identified yourself as part of the problem." That was your comment. I changed a couple of words so it would look like it was directed at you. Calling people defensive is very condescending and shitty, because it leaves people in a position where they have to choose…

Yes, agreed, I was condescending, and I will do better next time. To be honest, I've learned a lot about how to post civilly over the years on HN, and I still make mistakes. My post above is not an example of my best work. ;) But - answer me honestly - do you think what I said is less accurate or more condescending than what @tnones said about Brie? Do you think my comment was out of proportion or very different in t…

I think your comment was a little more condescending because the other comment invited a response (just from a non-feminist perspective) while your argument pre-emptively dismissed every possible response.

I also think it was less accurate because I believe the feminism angle is a red herring.

Like, suppose I complained that videogames are rarely marketed to poor people like me who can't afford modern hardware (when was ever "terrible graphics" and "runs on old consoles" a selling point for a mainstream game?) and then postulated some discrimination by elites against poor people, or maybe that they live in a bubble and are out of touch with the tastes of the poorer masses.

One could reasonably answer that I'm missing the point, the industry is perfectly aware of my situation and just doesn't care because I am not profitable to them. Also maybe I should support small indie game studios instead of complaining that AAA games are not being made with me in mind.

Just replace poor with women and we have a similar situation. Notice how the actions of the author (working as a game designer) actually do serve to improve the situation and it's only her discourse that is, in my opinion, holding us back as gamers. So that's why some people don't have a lot of patience for the "typical feminist schtick" (though I think this feminist is sincere and not a schtick)

Re: Video Games Are Boring

#150

Post by dota » Mon, Nov 07, 2016, 6:10 PM UTC

dahart wrote: post #143

saint_fiasco wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Does that comment scare you? You sound very defensive. I'm sorry to inform you that we do have a discourse problem that is well documented, and you have identified yourself as part of the problem." That was your comment. I changed a couple of words so it would look like it was directed at you. Calling people defensive is very condescending and shitty, because it leaves people in a position where they have to choose…

Yes, agreed, I was condescending, and I will do better next time. To be honest, I've learned a lot about how to post civilly over the years on HN, and I still make mistakes. My post above is not an example of my best work. ;) But - answer me honestly - do you think what I said is less accurate or more condescending than what @tnones said about Brie? Do you think my comment was out of proportion or very different in t…

Do you think my comment was out of proportion or very different in tone to what he said?

I think there is a noticeable tone difference, assuming one is sensitive to these sorts of things.

He dismissed Brie's words as "typical feminist schtick"

While this is true, as a whole if you compare his first couple of sentences to yours, his remains much more closely related to the overall subject matter. He dismisses the author's words, but goes right into talking about video games.

On the other hand, your opening is too focused on tnones. The subject is always tnones and neglects the topic of video games. You can see this with the constant instances of "you" throughout the first line of the comment.

Now maybe this is because you're trying to establish the thesis that tnones is part of the problem as you state in your first line. However, I think approaching your rebuttal this way has led us to where we are now where you come off as condescending. Ultimately it distracts too much from the subject matter and distracts from the points you make later.

Simply leading off with "we do have a culture problem that is well documented" without anything else in the first line would have been a better way to start. The impact of a statement like "you have identified yourself as part of the problem" would have been better in your conclusion after all was said and done.