Video Games Are Boring • Hacker News Board

Re: Video Games Are Boring

#111

Post by 1_2__3 » Mon, Nov 07, 2016, 4:07 PM UTC

dahart wrote: post #98

tnones wrote: post #89

There is nothing to support the author's typical feminist schtick of using diversity as a shorthand for blaming white men for the problems observed. Video games already have a diverse, demographically blind audience, that's why they're cheap mass entertainment. They're class and race-blind, and women do play them. Games can offer a free space to explore, play and excel, away from the judgement of real life, often wit…

Does this article scare you? You sound very defensive. I'm sorry to inform you that we do have a culture problem that is well documented, and you have identified yourself as part of the problem. > Video games already have a diverse, demographically blind audience Do you have some data to support your assertion there? That would mean that the same number of men and women play games. Because I've worked in games, and t…

If you took a less condescending tone your argument might be more persuasive with a wider audience.

Re: Video Games Are Boring

#112

Post by 1_2__3 » Mon, Nov 07, 2016, 4:09 PM UTC

COGlory wrote: post #38

I mostly disagree with this article. There's very few nonviolent games I've played that I enjoy. I guess you could say I'm the average consumer, but there are certain trends in industries that are predominant, because that's what people want. I think all media generally has its worth defined by how it is a conduit of unrealistic experience. For instance, the biggest blockbuster movies usually contain unrealistic scen…

I think you're giving far too much intellectual credit to what is basically just a feminist rant dressed up as concern trolling for the industry.

Re: Video Games Are Boring

#113

Post by dahart » Mon, Nov 07, 2016, 4:12 PM UTC

saint_fiasco wrote: post #107

dahart wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The definition of the demographics of games is the people who play games. What are you even talking about?

I know that is what you intended to talk about, but I'm pointing out that it's not what your sources are talking about. They are about who buys games, about who identifies as gamer (i.e. is more susceptible to marketing)

Only one of those four quotes said something about buying games, but you used plural language twice now. You drew a false pattern where none exists.

The fact that the stats I provided shows the same gender bias no matter how you slice it - whether it's playing, or purchasing, or identifying as a gamer, means that the bias is robust. It is more evidence of the bias, not less.

But, if you think the 4 links I posted are all wrong, feel free to actually refute it with some data instead of faulty logic.

All gamers are susceptible to marketing, whether they buy games or play free ones, that is part of the problem. Our marketing system is oriented toward boys, it is reinforcing the cultural problem we have, you can't escape marketing or divorce the problem from marketing, because marketing is half the issue.

Re: Video Games Are Boring

#114

Post by emodendroket » Mon, Nov 07, 2016, 4:17 PM UTC

dahart wrote: post #98

tnones wrote: post #89

There is nothing to support the author's typical feminist schtick of using diversity as a shorthand for blaming white men for the problems observed. Video games already have a diverse, demographically blind audience, that's why they're cheap mass entertainment. They're class and race-blind, and women do play them. Games can offer a free space to explore, play and excel, away from the judgement of real life, often wit…

Does this article scare you? You sound very defensive. I'm sorry to inform you that we do have a culture problem that is well documented, and you have identified yourself as part of the problem. > Video games already have a diverse, demographically blind audience Do you have some data to support your assertion there? That would mean that the same number of men and women play games. Because I've worked in games, and t…

60-40 is actually not so bad; much closer a split than I would have expected.

Re: Video Games Are Boring

#115

Post by edblarney » Mon, Nov 07, 2016, 4:19 PM UTC

edblarney wrote: post #110

tnones wrote: post #89

There is nothing to support the author's typical feminist schtick of using diversity as a shorthand for blaming white men for the problems observed. Video games already have a diverse, demographically blind audience, that's why they're cheap mass entertainment. They're class and race-blind, and women do play them. Games can offer a free space to explore, play and excel, away from the judgement of real life, often wit…

Though I agree with what you say - I would say that the conventions of games are gender oriented. They are made by guys, for guys, and girls can play along. The 'mission orientation' - the 'guns/violence' - and 'sports' - while not exclusively a guy thing - they are definitely guy-leaning. Let me say it differently: if you took a totally random sample of girls and gave them each $100M to go off and build the 'best ga…

To add: I'm not remotely making a political point, I'm not necessarily supporting the thesis of article, and I'm saying nothing about 'women in gaming' yada yada.

I'm just saying: I think that especially console game themes are generally a little gender-skewed.

Re: Video Games Are Boring

#116

Post by ZeroGravitas » Mon, Nov 07, 2016, 4:19 PM UTC

tnones wrote: post #108

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it is hilarious that she talks of "rich, deep experiences" but then holds up "Kim Kardashian: Hollywood" as an example in the very next sentence, which is literally a cash-grab celebrity reskin of an existing game. The sentence you refer to is calling attention to people sneering at that game. So you sneering at it is a bit weird. You're just supporting her point. I've heard it's a solid game, as you say it was mil…

The Kim Kardashian game is a hollow pay-to-win slugfest full of time locks, that made millions just by slapping on a celebrity face. If we are supposed to dislike video games that are boring and don't color outside the lines, as the author suggests, then that would be a pretty good candidate. The Walking Dead on the other hand is an expertly written, uniquely styled game, which is tied-in to its source IP pretty much…

I can see differences, but when you sneered at the Kardashian game, the reasons you gave applied just as much to a Telltale Walking Dead game, or a Lego Batman game.

So now you're clarifying that you're sneering at the Kardashian game because it's boring, and it made too much money from all the people who play it all the time.

Re: Video Games Are Boring

#117

Post by brador » Mon, Nov 07, 2016, 4:22 PM UTC

edblarney wrote: post #110

tnones wrote: post #89

There is nothing to support the author's typical feminist schtick of using diversity as a shorthand for blaming white men for the problems observed. Video games already have a diverse, demographically blind audience, that's why they're cheap mass entertainment. They're class and race-blind, and women do play them. Games can offer a free space to explore, play and excel, away from the judgement of real life, often wit…

Though I agree with what you say - I would say that the conventions of games are gender oriented. They are made by guys, for guys, and girls can play along. The 'mission orientation' - the 'guns/violence' - and 'sports' - while not exclusively a guy thing - they are definitely guy-leaning. Let me say it differently: if you took a totally random sample of girls and gave them each $100M to go off and build the 'best ga…

Moat modern games are made to sell. If the buyers are looking for X then it makes sense that a business should provide them with X to turn the most profit.

If females, or anyone, wants separate gameplay mechanics then they need to reward that with cold cash to build an economy and incentivize creation. Else it's all just words and forcing a square block into a circle hole. Cash is the only way to lasting change (see the mobile space for example).

Re: Video Games Are Boring

#118

Post by saint_fiasco » Mon, Nov 07, 2016, 4:25 PM UTC

dahart wrote: post #113

saint_fiasco wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know that is what you intended to talk about, but I'm pointing out that it's not what your sources are talking about. They are about who buys games, about who identifies as gamer (i.e. is more susceptible to marketing)

Only one of those four quotes said something about buying games, but you used plural language twice now. You drew a false pattern where none exists. The fact that the stats I provided shows the same gender bias no matter how you slice it - whether it's playing, or purchasing, or identifying as a gamer, means that the bias is robust. It is more evidence of the bias, not less. But, if you think the 4 links I posted are…

Ok, so the first source is the one that says "buy" instead of "play".

The second and third are alright, and also the least outrageous ones. The 2nd says the male/female ratio is 56% to 44% and the 3rd says 58% to 42%, which are not that bad.

The fourth one is about "identifying as gamers".

I agree there is a marketing problem from our point of view, but from the point of view of the marketers it makes sense to market to boys because they buy more (per source 1) and they are more loyal customers (per source 4). Women (and for that matter, poor people) still play a lot of games, just not the profitable ones (from the publisher's point of view).

Re: Video Games Are Boring

#119

Post by panglott » Mon, Nov 07, 2016, 4:27 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #92

panglott wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have very different fantasy lives. Some people have fantasy lives that revolve around social relationships. Others have fantasy lives that revolve around power-tripping and murder-hoboing. But I suspect that the former are actually much more common than the latter. It's a fantasy life because it is not actually reality! I always wondered why people play Guitar Hero when they could just practice the guitar inst…

I can't imagine realistic social gaming given today's technology. Relationships are complicated - much more complicated than game graphics. A system that accurately modelled human relationships would probably need to be within throwing distance of passing the Turing test. One reason the industry keeps churning through the same ideas is because they're relatively tractable. Graphics, physics, texturing etc, are all so…

Lots of CRPGs understand that gamers want to explore different identities, and thus have strong character customization. But conflict in the game is often framed around violence and murder. It shouldn't surprise anyone that lots of people find violence and gore simply disturbing and don't want to engage it. In fact, that's what happened with the author's cousin and Skyrim: she was playing it obsessively until her "friend' died. What turned her off was not the limits of technology, but the game's violence.

When I read that she didn't like "Journey" because the snake could kill her, I thought back to how much I hated some of the ridiculous cheap death at the beginning of one of the first games I played, the original "King's Quest III" here http://icdn8.digitaltrends.com/image/kings-quest-iii-screens... (which I presevered through, although it seems like she would not). And it's true that many of the women I know who occasionally play games like things like "The Secret of Monkey Island", which has puzzles and RPG elements but dying is impossible. "The Sims" is another game with a large female audience that focused on building and exploring social interactions and identities. And IRL you can't actually lock your kids in a closet, drown them, or set them on fire, like you can with digital dolls.

Thinking in terms of board games, social games like Liar's Dice and Werewolf don't require good AI. Pandemic is a huge hit as a game without any social conflict at all, where the players are collaborating to solve puzzles (the game).

Re: Video Games Are Boring

#120

Post by dahart » Mon, Nov 07, 2016, 4:28 PM UTC

1_2__3 wrote: post #111

dahart wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this article scare you? You sound very defensive. I'm sorry to inform you that we do have a culture problem that is well documented, and you have identified yourself as part of the problem. > Video games already have a diverse, demographically blind audience Do you have some data to support your assertion there? That would mean that the same number of men and women play games. Because I've worked in games, and t…

If you took a less condescending tone your argument might be more persuasive with a wider audience.

Sorry about that, I sometimes do get condescending when I feel strongly and am pretty certain that I'm right. It is a problem, and I do want to learn how to make a strong point and not be condescending.

Do you feel like my language was more condescending than the comment I replied to? I reacted to what I felt was more or less outright sexist language.

"There is nothing to support the author's typical feminist schtick of using diversity as a shorthand for blaming white men for the problems observed."

I realize I may be wrong, but I have to admit that I felt like my language, while a little more personal, was more measured and less condescending than that.