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Canada’s federal court rules intelligence service bulk data collection illegal

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Re: Canada’s federal court rules intelligence service bulk data collection illegal

#11

Post by DanBC »

adekok wrote: post #9
pjc50 wrote: post #6

"But there is no apparent fallout from this for CSIS yet. While the spy agency says it will stop analyzing the contentious data, there are no indications that it will destroy the data." It's not really illegal if there's no enforcement, is there?

Ignorance of the law is no excuse. ... for me. Not for them, apparently. If the people enforcing the law aren't required to know or follow it, why am I required to?

They're not claiming to be ignorant of the law. They're claiming they made every effort to obey the law; they thought they were obeying the law. It turns out they were wrong.

Many crimes require both actus reus (guilty act) and mens rea (guilty mind).

Re: Canada’s federal court rules intelligence service bulk data collection illegal

#12

Post by ENGNR »

DanBC wrote: post #11
adekok wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse. ... for me. Not for them, apparently. If the people enforcing the law aren't required to know or follow it, why am I required to?

They're not claiming to be ignorant of the law. They're claiming they made every effort to obey the law; they thought they were obeying the law. It turns out they were wrong. Many crimes require both actus reus (guilty act) and mens rea (guilty mind).

So if I take a law, and secretly reinterpet it beyond reason, then do my best to prevent anyone from finding out my reinterpretation... then it's all good, no criminal charges for me

Re: Canada’s federal court rules intelligence service bulk data collection illegal

#14

Post by kjnkjnsdf »

adekok wrote: post #9
pjc50 wrote: post #6

"But there is no apparent fallout from this for CSIS yet. While the spy agency says it will stop analyzing the contentious data, there are no indications that it will destroy the data." It's not really illegal if there's no enforcement, is there?

Ignorance of the law is no excuse. ... for me. Not for them, apparently. If the people enforcing the law aren't required to know or follow it, why am I required to?

Because you are part of the herd. Now shut up and go buy a mcgadget.

Re: Canada’s federal court rules intelligence service bulk data collection illegal

#15

Post by MichaelBurge »

ENGNR wrote: post #12
DanBC wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not claiming to be ignorant of the law. They're claiming they made every effort to obey the law; they thought they were obeying the law. It turns out they were wrong. Many crimes require both actus reus (guilty act) and mens rea (guilty mind).

So if I take a law, and secretly reinterpet it beyond reason, then do my best to prevent anyone from finding out my reinterpretation... then it's all good, no criminal charges for me

As long as you can convince the prosecutor or jury you're not guilty, you can shoot someone on the street in plain sight with video evidence and get off free or without charges.

It's up to the prosecutor whether he'll be persuaded by your elaborate scheme. I'm sure he's heard worse.

Re: Canada’s federal court rules intelligence service bulk data collection illegal

#16

Post by rayiner »

ENGNR wrote: post #12
DanBC wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not claiming to be ignorant of the law. They're claiming they made every effort to obey the law; they thought they were obeying the law. It turns out they were wrong. Many crimes require both actus reus (guilty act) and mens rea (guilty mind).

So if I take a law, and secretly reinterpet it beyond reason, then do my best to prevent anyone from finding out my reinterpretation... then it's all good, no criminal charges for me

First, does the CSIS even provide for criminal charges? Second, what is a "beyond reason" interpretation of "strictly necessary?"

Note that in the U.S. at least there is a "rule of lenity"--requiring ambiguous criminal statutes to be interpreted in favor of defendants. I assume there is something similar in Canadian law.

Re: Canada’s federal court rules intelligence service bulk data collection illegal

#17

Post by revelation »

DanBC wrote: post #11
adekok wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse. ... for me. Not for them, apparently. If the people enforcing the law aren't required to know or follow it, why am I required to?

They're not claiming to be ignorant of the law. They're claiming they made every effort to obey the law; they thought they were obeying the law. It turns out they were wrong. Many crimes require both actus reus (guilty act) and mens rea (guilty mind).

That surely is a question to determine on a case by case basis. Of which there must be billions.

Instead, the CSIS is being treated as some sort of legal black hole. Where is the police raid?

Re: Canada’s federal court rules intelligence service bulk data collection illegal

#18

Post by hbt »

You'd have to be a fool to trust lawmakers or law enforcement with your data and privacy by this point.

They will always find some loophole in the language. Illegal to collect but not illegal to access what has been collected by allies (aka the Five Eyes).

Just encrypt everything, use VPNs and whatever you push in plain/text may as well be public.

Trust open technologies you understand, not politicians.

Re: Canada’s federal court rules intelligence service bulk data collection illegal

#19

Post by sandworm101 »

For any non-Canadians reading this, understand that Canadians have a very different relationship with CSIS than say Americans do with the NSA or Brits with GCHQ. We have not seen the bulk use of this data for purposes of general law enforcement. It isn't being used to nab drug dealers or child pornographers. CSIS is rather oldschool in it's approach: intel assets are for intel purposes, not law enforcement. At least that is what we have seen so far. The trust has yet to be broken as it has elsewhere.

Re: Canada’s federal court rules intelligence service bulk data collection illegal

#20

Post by appleiigs »

hbt wrote: post #18

You'd have to be a fool to trust lawmakers or law enforcement with your data and privacy by this point. They will always find some loophole in the language. Illegal to collect but not illegal to access what has been collected by allies (aka the Five Eyes). Just encrypt everything, use VPNs and whatever you push in plain/text may as well be public. Trust open technologies you understand, not politicians.

I'd extend it to: you'd be a fool to trust anyone with your data and privacy. At least law enforcement is working under the premise of the good of society (albeit, implemented poorly), compared to Google and Facebook which is working to monetize you.
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