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Don’t Get Attached, It’s Just Luck. My Interviewing Advice and Tips

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Re: Don’t Get Attached, It’s Just Luck. My Interviewing Advice and Tips

#41
post #26

this is all good info. especially the take homes. when i interviewed this time around for a new job, the most frustrating part were the take homes. lots of companies expect you to do a sample project that only grants you an audience to a technical phone screen. like, what? didn't i just pass your technical test? if i still have to show my technical prowess doesn't that mean you don't trust my resume, or trust that i…

I disagree about the take homes. But this may primarily be because I've been hiring with a heavily weighted take-home for the last six months. Here's my reasoning:

1. I don't want to work for a company that uses CVs as a major part of its job screen, since they are nearly useless from an informational point of view. Steps that improve the quality of candidates also improve the expected quality of your future colleagues.

2. The take home gives significantly more information than a phone screen. Candidates who are rejected because they find the take home too hard, or who would have passed a phone screen but not the take home are saving time because they don't have to take any time off to come into the office for an onsite.

3. Having a good take-home means we can make the rest of the process more lightweight. We have an extension interview where we pair with you while you extend what you took home, and then you're done. This is much more respectful of your time than multiple days of algorithmic questions.

4. It's easier to make marking take-homes blind - i.e. to guard against various biases compared to phone screens and even in-person interviews.

5. The take-home is simplified, but similar to the sort of thing you will have to do in your actual work, so doing it gives you extra information about the job itself.

6. The take-home is designed to result in something that's fun. Many of our candidates say that they enjoyed doing it. Even some of the ones who fail it. Some even say it's a reason that they choose us over some other company.

It is true that some good candidates simply refuse to do take homes on principle since they have lots of choice. To try to combat this, we make sure we try to explain why it's worth your time.

If I told candidates 'congratulations, you've got a 1 day onsite interview' (where in the morning you're on your own and we send you home at lunchtime if you've not made good progress) instead of a half-day take-home (in which we are very flexible over how much elapsed time you need) and a 1.5 hour onsite extension, do you think candidates would prefer that?

Re: Don’t Get Attached, It’s Just Luck. My Interviewing Advice and Tips

#42
post #26

this is all good info. especially the take homes. when i interviewed this time around for a new job, the most frustrating part were the take homes. lots of companies expect you to do a sample project that only grants you an audience to a technical phone screen. like, what? didn't i just pass your technical test? if i still have to show my technical prowess doesn't that mean you don't trust my resume, or trust that i…

I disagree about the take homes. But this may primarily be because I've been hiring with a heavily weighted take-home for the last six months. Here's my reasoning: 1. I don't want to work for a company that uses CVs as a major part of its job screen, since they are nearly useless from an informational point of view. Steps that improve the quality of candidates also improve the expected quality of your future colleagu…

I'm assuming you're referring to an un-timed homework assignment. Timed homework assignments are absolutely the devil and I don't think I'd do one of these.

My biggest issue with (un-timed) take home assignment is that often, as a candidate, this ends up with me investing a nontrivial amount of time, only to not hear anything back. If I'm going to spend multiple hours on something, I would kind of like something in return, such as feedback on my work. Very, very few companies will give any feedback since they don't want to be sued and/or have the candidate try to rebut the reasons why they were turned down.

Re: Don’t Get Attached, It’s Just Luck. My Interviewing Advice and Tips

#43
It's quite fitting that the dating scene in S.F. is often similar to tech interviewing. Play the number games, don't get attached, and move on. Nothing personal, it's just metrics. Is this what cutthroat economic competition does to people?

Re: Don’t Get Attached, It’s Just Luck. My Interviewing Advice and Tips

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree about the take homes. But this may primarily be because I've been hiring with a heavily weighted take-home for the last six months. Here's my reasoning: 1. I don't want to work for a company that uses CVs as a major part of its job screen, since they are nearly useless from an informational point of view. Steps that improve the quality of candidates also improve the expected quality of your future colleagu…

I'm assuming you're referring to an un-timed homework assignment. Timed homework assignments are absolutely the devil and I don't think I'd do one of these. My biggest issue with (un-timed) take home assignment is that often, as a candidate, this ends up with me investing a nontrivial amount of time, only to not hear anything back. If I'm going to spend multiple hours on something, I would kind of like something in r…

Yeah, it's untimed in the sense that we don't specify an elapsed time it must be done in. People have different things going on in their lives, and you can't just assume they can drop everything for your test. We specify a suggested amount of time so that people know not to spend too much time on it.

On the feedback point: this is a perfectly reasonable stance. Perhaps I should give better feedback to our candidates.

Part of my concern is that I've seen candidates show me emails from their recruiters that have attached all the detailed feedback I've give to their previous candidates.

The other thing is that at some points in the hiring, you're really competing against the others in the pipeline, so you might have actually performed very well, just not quite as well as one of the others. I have also seen one candidate fail based on multiple independent personal disrecommendations rather than on performing badly in the test.

I have noticed in previous interview processes that a lot of people think they failed for a reason other than the reason they actually did fail.

I do think it'd be more fair for me to give better and more detailed feedback, but there are a lot of pitfalls with the most obvious version of that. Perhaps there's room for a bit of disruption with a good solution to this problem.

Re: Don’t Get Attached, It’s Just Luck. My Interviewing Advice and Tips

#45
post #3

" When I go into ‘interviewing mode’ I stop working on side projects, I stop visiting bs sites like reddit, news sites, and even HN. If it isn’t going to help you get that job just cut it from your life. Focus intensely on learning and writing job applications until you get there. This process isn’t fun, why drag it out any longer than you need to. "

actually this is the right advice. To find a job IS a full time job. No one wants to hear it but after running NemCV and getting data on around 15,000 job hunters, I saw that the people who treat looking for a job AS A JOB get a job over 10x faster than those who don't... Here is a link to the meetup we have run for 5 years too:

http://www.meetup.com/get-your-dream-job/

Re: Don’t Get Attached, It’s Just Luck. My Interviewing Advice and Tips

#46
post #3

" When I go into ‘interviewing mode’ I stop working on side projects, I stop visiting bs sites like reddit, news sites, and even HN. If it isn’t going to help you get that job just cut it from your life. Focus intensely on learning and writing job applications until you get there. This process isn’t fun, why drag it out any longer than you need to. "

That ... doesn't sound healthy, or productive. It is well established that there are diminishing returns to working longer hours on a task, even to the point of negative marginal utility. This is not true just for knowledge workers but, surprisingly, also held for factory workers during the industrial revolution. Not to mention the health impacts of spending so much time on a singular (soul crushing IMO) task.

actually trying an unproductive technique is what is wrong. You need to be full time and using a productive technique, so I do agree that just sending out CVs 24 hours a day is wrong

Re: Don’t Get Attached, It’s Just Luck. My Interviewing Advice and Tips

#47

My perspective is skewed because I'm a uni student, but although there's really good stuff here, a lot also sticks out to me as the kind of advice I'd be giving to someone who just wants something to pay the bills, not someone who wants to do something they really want to do. The high volume apps and crapshoot stuff - 100% yes. Stuff like template cover letters? Nuh-uh. I have a structure that I stick to - hey, saw y…

No, you can't spot a memorized story. You can possibly spot a poorly memorized story. It's the difference between learning a speech off by heart and knowing the material backwards.

Re: Don’t Get Attached, It’s Just Luck. My Interviewing Advice and Tips

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm assuming you're referring to an un-timed homework assignment. Timed homework assignments are absolutely the devil and I don't think I'd do one of these. My biggest issue with (un-timed) take home assignment is that often, as a candidate, this ends up with me investing a nontrivial amount of time, only to not hear anything back. If I'm going to spend multiple hours on something, I would kind of like something in r…

Yeah, it's untimed in the sense that we don't specify an elapsed time it must be done in. People have different things going on in their lives, and you can't just assume they can drop everything for your test. We specify a suggested amount of time so that people know not to spend too much time on it. On the feedback point: this is a perfectly reasonable stance. Perhaps I should give better feedback to our candidates.…

Triplebyte does a fair job on the feedback front. I've been through their process recently, and found it to be more useful for me than any other company's process (I chose the coding project over the standard process). I dislike that they still put candidates on the spot by writing code literally in front of them[0], but the feedback I got from them was actually useful.

I think your issue with candidates showing you emails from their recruiters is actually an issue with recruiters more than your process. Recruiters will do just about anything they can to make the placement.

If you're in a situation where a candidate excels on the test but gets passed over in favor of someone who did even better, then, good for you. :) "We decided to go with another candidate at this time, but here's a little feedback on your coding project," would go a long way with me. If you're really feeling generous, a referral into another company would be a great thing.

Someone who fails because of personal disrecommendations, you can just give them a generic "We reviewed your coding project and here's what we thought of it... but we decided to go in a different direction. Best of luck on your search." (I'm assuming these people fail because they're assholes, not because they're incompetent, right?)

---

[0]: Seriously, guys, if you're reading this... I chose the project interview because I fall apart when being put on the spot, and I told you that. I don't have someone watching over my shoulder at work... and it's a good thing, too, otherwise I'd end up having anxiety attacks.

Re: Don’t Get Attached, It’s Just Luck. My Interviewing Advice and Tips

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it can work both ways. Tasks like that can be time-consuming, but would you rather take a day off for an on-site interview, or spend ~1h doing it at home? There's some line that shouldn't be crossed of course - I think companies shouldn't give the test to everyone - just those who are actually considered after some screening. But I've been on both sides: taking and preparing the test, and I think it's a good…

Those take home tasks are rarely 1 hour deals, so it's not a question of spend an hour at home or take a day off for an on-site. It's usually spend X hours at home and take a day off for an on-site. Do you really think that "crazy unicode test case" person really only spent an hour on your test?

> Those take home tasks are rarely 1 hour deals

This seems to be the common complaint, but really this is discussing the idea -vs- the implementation. Some examples here of checking specific things that were not in scope, or tasks that take whole day are really disappointing. And I agree there are loads of really crappy tests out there.

But yes, you can create a test that's easily doable in 1h. As for the crazy edge case tests: probably. It's still a reasonable thing to check for, but often people don't. (having a non-ascii name helps here) If you have simple enough and open-ended enough tasks, I don't think extra time helps the candidates in any way. I mean, either you have experience doing something or you don't. Even if you spent, for example, X hours researching "what does production-ready mean?" and related topics, I don't believe you'd produce as good result as someone with actual experience. (yeah, I could see that in the answer)

Re: Don’t Get Attached, It’s Just Luck. My Interviewing Advice and Tips

#50
I've been coding since I was 14 (I'm 27 now) and went to uni; I usually never have a problem with technical interviews, but I applied for Facebook just to try out their interview process (because one of my academic-minded software engineering friends told me that he didn't pass the third interview - So I was intrigued).

I thought that their questions were mostly good but the interviewer makes you code live in realtime - I found this really stressful and I froze several times.

I remember one of the challenges they posed in one of the interviews was to flatten a JSON multidimensional array that had an arbitrary level of nesting. I implemented the recursive solution without any problem (which is the difficult part right?) but then the interviewer asked me to come up with a non-recursive solution - This is actually easier, but because I was under stress and was still thinking about the problem in recursive terms, I just froze.

I even asked "Do I need to use a fringe list?" (referring to a structure used in several search algorithms) but I don't think the interviewer understood my question and they weren't able to give me any guidance for what they were specifically looking for so I just asked to skip that question because of time pressure.

Then later they asked some really easy questions about HTML and CSS (which I've done thousands of time) but because of the IDE they made me use, I couldn't actually run the code to test (and under stress, I forgot the exact syntax for a few things).

I guess this is an interview process you need to really prepare for.

I suppose the process makes sense for FB; the feeling of 'being watched' which I felt in the interview is probably common while working there day-to-day (considering the open workspace environment) - They need engineers who can perform in such an environment. I'm definitely not one of them.

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