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Ask HN: Do you still use UML?

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171–180 of 188 posts

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use UML?

#171
post #166

UML was, in some sense, an expression of a certain kind of politics: ------------- "And there is an explicitly political idea that drove OOP to its peak in the 1990s: the idea of outsourcing. The idea of outsourcing software development rested on some assumptions about how software development should work, in particular the idea of the “genius” architect, backed by an army of morons who act as secretaries, taking dic…

I think everything you say is true except the jab at java, which is also true, but not all the truth... Besides, during the 90s the idea seemed to be that that the next step after the outsourcing was actually no programmers at all. UML and 4gl systems would handle all the complexities and laymen domain experts could just define all bread and butter administrative systems they like - no expensive and socially awkward…

> during the 90s the idea seemed to be that that the next step after the outsourcing was actually no programmers at all

Lest someone think this is an exaggeration, no, this was literally the conversation at the highest levels of some companies. A relative told me to reconsider going after a comp sci degree in 1995 because within ten years the computers would be programming themselves. There were presentations at their workplace about it.

My first "real" job was programming customizations hacked on top of a 4gl tool - injecting JavaScript into pages through an improperly sanitized widget! After the whole application was rewritten in the 4gl tool, it never lived up to its promise.

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use UML?

#172
UML diagrams are practical, but there's a cost to creating them and maintaining them. You can argue that many tools have been created to address this problem, but the problem remains... especially maintaining them.

Now, sequence diagrams remain one of the best ways of explaining distributed workflows (e.g: OAuth) that I know of. If you work with an OOP language, a class diagram might be useful to express some ideas. Other UML diagrams are less used.

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use UML?

#173
post #124
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AGI will solve it. I think we've got a while yet before that becomes an issue for us devs though.

AGI sounds like fuzzy logic. We know how far that got. It will make some companies money though, it's snake oil. Computers even thousands of years from now will never be able to do what a programmer with 1 year of experience can do today, it's the advantage of being human.

Computers have less than a century of history so far and you're already able to predict the next thousands of years? Sounds like a religious belief to me.

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use UML?

#174
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The FP crowd is so vocal. Reformed math geeks who are trying to evangelize the world of programming to do things one way; their way.

> Reformed math geeks I presume you mean the Haskell crowd? The Lisp crowd is more about expression rather than "correctness" and rigidity. FP doesn't really have a formal definition. > trying to evangelize the world of programming to do things one way; their way. I think the world of computing is shifting towards a lot of async work, and if you've ever written large threaded apps, having too much state becomes the g…

If only the LISP syntax looked like a programming language and made logical sense.

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use UML?

#175
post #124
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AGI will solve it. I think we've got a while yet before that becomes an issue for us devs though.

AGI sounds like fuzzy logic. We know how far that got. It will make some companies money though, it's snake oil. Computers even thousands of years from now will never be able to do what a programmer with 1 year of experience can do today, it's the advantage of being human.

At the end of 2014, nobody disagreed with this comic: http://xkcd.com/1425/

Halfway through 2016, "a programmer with 1 year of experience" using nothing by Python, numpy and a couple of spare weeks could roll their own convolutional neural net to identify images with high-90-percent accuracy.

I dunno about you but that sounds like a significant advance to me.

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use UML?

#177
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think everything you say is true except the jab at java, which is also true, but not all the truth... Besides, during the 90s the idea seemed to be that that the next step after the outsourcing was actually no programmers at all. UML and 4gl systems would handle all the complexities and laymen domain experts could just define all bread and butter administrative systems they like - no expensive and socially awkward…

> during the 90s the idea seemed to be that that the next step after the outsourcing was actually no programmers at all Lest someone think this is an exaggeration, no, this was literally the conversation at the highest levels of some companies. A relative told me to reconsider going after a comp sci degree in 1995 because within ten years the computers would be programming themselves. There were presentations at thei…

Fred Brooks where spot on in his thoughs regarding essential (as in inherent) complexity.

I think that BPEL thankfully died just a couple of years ago, but not thanks to some globally aquired insight but rather because a new batch of developers isn't quite there yet so they are busy learning and reinventing basic stuff, but now at 'internet scale'

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use UML?

#178
post #175
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AGI sounds like fuzzy logic. We know how far that got. It will make some companies money though, it's snake oil. Computers even thousands of years from now will never be able to do what a programmer with 1 year of experience can do today, it's the advantage of being human.

At the end of 2014, nobody disagreed with this comic: http://xkcd.com/1425/ Halfway through 2016, "a programmer with 1 year of experience" using nothing by Python, numpy and a couple of spare weeks could roll their own convolutional neural net to identify images with high-90-percent accuracy. I dunno about you but that sounds like a significant advance to me.

Would you play Russian Roulette with those odds? I wonder if an artificial intelligence would.

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use UML?

#179
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AGI sounds like fuzzy logic. We know how far that got. It will make some companies money though, it's snake oil. Computers even thousands of years from now will never be able to do what a programmer with 1 year of experience can do today, it's the advantage of being human.

Computers have less than a century of history so far and you're already able to predict the next thousands of years? Sounds like a religious belief to me.

> Computers have less than a century of history so far

That's actually the point.

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use UML?

#180
post #54

UML can be a great communication tool in specific situations but when it becomes a religion your organization will suffer. I'm older than most here, drank the cool-aid that predicted code generation and round tripping but spit it back up before the poison had a chance to set in. A bonus comment for the youngin's ... When you hear that some new system will allow "the common man" to write his own software without devel…

The youngins say AI will solve this. They're wrong.

Ai is another thing that's always just around the corner, probably the same corner as graphical programming.
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