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Is democracy a failure? (1861)

nytimes.com

241–250 of 275 posts

Re: Is democracy a failure? (1861)

#241

"Under the relentless thrust of accelerating over-population and increasing over-organization, and by means of ever more effective methods of mind-manipulation, the democracies will change their nature; the quaint old forms—elections, parliaments, Supreme Courts and all the rest—will remain. The underlying substance will be a new kind of non-violent totalitarianism. All the traditional names, all the hallowed slogans…

This is why we need a participatory democracy [1], rather than a representative democracy. Also, we need better ways to keep our leaders in check, i.e., more transparency. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participatory_democracy

I did a few research about voting methods and the best seems to be the Schulze method [1]. After reading its process I just saw that it is in fact widely used in Open Source projects!

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulze_method#cite_note-Frenc...

Re: Is democracy a failure? (1861)

#242
post #35

"51% of people want spin-up, 49% of people want spin-down, therefore we are going to be a spin-up only society". That right there is the problem with Democracy. Democracy finds controversy, but it does absolutely nothing about it. Since the majority side is always favored, there's no incentive to actually get past the disagreements; there's no incentive to grow. It's just about mindlessly acquiring votes. Democracy p…

couldn't up vote enough. Also almost all decisions are voted into without proper deliberations. If you don't like to deliberate, you are incompetent to be elected in the first place. Governments have been turning into for profit entities. And checks and balances being systematically side stepped.

Re: Is democracy a failure? (1861)

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you care to elaborate on that?

Commons trusts would be another major pillar, and democratic confederations of localities. There are many non-capitalist types of institutions ready to use.

> non-capitalist types of institutions

Common trusts and co-ops are both "capitalist institutions". They both rely on private ownership and voluntary transactions. Not sure what you mean by "democratic confederations of localities".

Re: Is democracy a failure? (1861)

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you care to elaborate on that?

Commons trusts would be another major pillar, and democratic confederations of localities. There are many non-capitalist types of institutions ready to use.

So, I'm a little confused here. You're listing individual points of what would be different, and what the overall intended effect would be (democratic control by workers), but I'm not seeing how this all fits together into a coherent system.

Re: Is democracy a failure? (1861)

#245
post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Commons trusts would be another major pillar, and democratic confederations of localities. There are many non-capitalist types of institutions ready to use.

> non-capitalist types of institutions Common trusts and co-ops are both "capitalist institutions". They both rely on private ownership and voluntary transactions. Not sure what you mean by "democratic confederations of localities".

To be fair, he means "capitalist" in a different sense than you do. If you take what he said but use a different interpretation of the words, of course nonsense will result.

But I do think that despite the above your underlying point is fundamentally correct here; both commons trusts and co-ops work perfectly well under existing rules. It sounds like, aside from the democratic confederations thing, what eli_gottlieb wants is not a different system of rules, but rather to kick the existing system into a different equlibrium. (It really seems like these socialist types tend not to distinguish between these...)

Re: Is democracy a failure? (1861)

#246
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've really become more and more for states' rights as time goes on. It's very clear that most states (especially rural states) fundamentally disagree with California, New York, and the other blue strongholds. I want to preserve the culture I grew up in. I want everyone to contribute to society. I want a culture where what you get is what you worked for. I don't want "diversity" or a bunch of people from other countr…

>> I don't want "diversity" or a bunch of people from other countries to move to the town I grew up in. Yet you have moved to California? Can you hear the irony? >> It's very hard to see the merit in one culture, being from the other. You don't have. You just have to accept other people think differently and want different things to you.

Yes, I accept that other people think differently than me. But that should not give the right for Californians to overthrow my community and my culture which exists thousands of miles away from California.

Re: Is democracy a failure? (1861)

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the non-violent use of a rifle that is important? I sold pot in college in the 90s, and there was no violence. Perhaps it is the ilegalization of various plant materials that causes violence in the distribution process?

Hunting, pest control, etc. Pot isn't that harmful, but contrary to popular belief most people are not in prison for possessing or even distributing pot. Heroin, meth, etc. definitely are harmful and addictive, and destroy lives. Selling them would be violent even if those products were legal (like cigarettes).

Hunting and pest control are examples of non-violence? Is that your argument?

Re: Is democracy a failure? (1861)

#248
post #143
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is more that it's not an either/or proposition. Social democracies have significant components each of democracy, socialism, and capitalism.

It actually is. Capitalism is defined by the ownership of private property and individuals selling their labor to these owners in the form of a wage/salary, whereas socialism is where private property has been abolished for some form of common ownership. They are mutually exclusive. Social democracies aren't socialist, they're strong welfare in a capitalist system.

So why did the Soviet Union have private housing (and the ability to inherit it)? Why does the modern USA have public lands, managed by the government for the free use of all? How do you classify Chinese communism?

It really isn't an either/or proposition; you're only taking the absolute extremes of the concepts. If it was such a proposition, where does the switch take place? At what point would a nation 'flip' from being 'socialist' to being 'capitalist'?

Re: Is democracy a failure? (1861)

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It says a lot actually. Police officers are humans who want to go home to their kids. Hence the riot gear. We can blame them for being too fearful, but we can also recognize that they have reasons to be afraid. These reasons don't fit into "because The Man" narratives without some explanation.

Humans who are vastly over-prepared for the threat they face. They're not fighting a war, and acting like they are only increases popular resentment. How does can an officer covered head to toe in riot gear, carrying military equipment, jumping out of an armored vehicle, engage with the community?

"A police officer or two killed" ...

"Humans who are vastly over-prepared for the threat they face"

Again, these are people who want to go home to their families.

"acting like they are only increases popular resentment"

Valid point. But the riot gear itself was a reaction to throwing stones or molotov cocktails. Sniper fire appears to be a reaction to the riot gear...

"How does can an officer covered head to toe in riot gear, carrying military equipment, jumping out of an armored vehicle, engage with the community?"

Valid point. Lets ask a similar question. How can a protester throwing stones or shooting people engage with the institutions they are trying to change?

Re: Is democracy a failure? (1861)

#250
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now before you dismiss me, I'm not defending socialist states, they are far far worse than liberal democracies The countries with the highest quality of life are Social Democracies. Places like the nordic countries and the 'new world' anglo countries excluding the US. It's bizarre just how much the US has demonised the concept of socialism in its political dialogue.

Respectfully, I must point out that the countries you mention are also among the most homogenous societies on Earth, both ethnically and politically.

So, Australia, despite it's reputation, as of a few years ago, had 28% of it's population born overseas. Remove the brits (6%) and the kiwis (1%), and the figure becomes 21%. Compare to 14% for the US, and 12% for the UK (without any groups removed). The last few years, the #1 source of migrants was China. Australia also has only around the replacement birthrate, and yet has increased it's population from 19M in 1999 to 24M today - a figure mostly risen on the back of migration. I'm 43 years old; the White Australia Policy finished it's 20-year dismantling the year I was born, and so has been dead as a dodo for a while now.

Canada (20% foreign-born) and New Zealand (25% foreign-born) are in similar boats. However, your statement is also pretty offensive to kiwis, of whom 15% are of Maori stock - indeed, the relatively harmonious relations are rightfully a source of pride to the kiwis. Both of these countries also deal in bilingual politics (Australia does not).

I'm less knowledgable on the makeup of the Nordic countries, but it's worth pointing out that only two western democracies have a higher rate of immigration than Australia (excluding the year of Syria crisis migration). These countries are Spain and Norway. As for Sweden (usually the go-to country for these discussions), looking now, and excluding the Syria crisis, 14% of Swedes were of foreign birth, equivalent to the US, and two-thirds of these were born outside the EU. While, yes, Sweden doesn't have the latino or black analogues in their national background like the US does, they're not as culturally homogenous as most people think.

In short, I think you're talking about the stereotypes in your head rather than the actual nations. Handwaving it away with "meh, they're all the same in those countries" is an egregious error - after all, if what you're suggesting was true, then Portugal and Ireland (95%+ local-born, single culture) would be powerhouses.

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