Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace • Hacker News Board

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#251

Post by acedinlowball » Fri, Nov 04, 2016, 5:46 PM UTC

SpliffnCola wrote: post #199

SOLAR_FIELDS wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mark up for juice at most vape stores is obscene, yet still manages to be cheaper than regular cigarettes. $15 for 30 mL at my local store, that lasts me on average 15 days. So it's still roughly half the price for a half pack a day smoker and 1/4 of the price for a pack a day smoker (assuming a very generous $5 a pack). If you mix your own juice you're approaching savings that are better on an order of magnitude…

I highly recommend Vapejoose, they have 120ml bottles for $23.99, sometimes $20, and they offer free shipping over $50. Three 120ml bottles last me close to an entire month. Local stores around here are also a rip-off (near Austin, Texas).

360ml a month??

That's more than 10ml a day! I know you're going to disagree and try to convince me otherwise, but that is an INSANE amount of liquid.

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#252

Post by acedinlowball » Fri, Nov 04, 2016, 5:48 PM UTC

neotek wrote: post #236

ythl wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a good enough reason to not have anti-vape commercials. Just because it's "less bad" than analog cigarettes doesn't mean we shouldn't speak out about their negative effects.

Nor does it mean we should arbitrarily ban or restrict them to satisfy the whims of people who haven't looked at the evidence.

Nor should we assume that people who disagree with us "haven't looked at the evidence"

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#253

Post by d0lph » Fri, Nov 04, 2016, 7:43 PM UTC

mwfunk wrote: post #132

imgabe wrote: post #101

Of course it's great if you're replacing normal cigarettes with it. But why should we pretend it's healthy to do if you weren't smoking to begin with? Nicotine is still highly addictive and causes heart disease. If you're not currently using nicotine, why start?

That's one thing I don't understand. It's great if used as an an aid to quitting, like nicotine gum, but I don't understand why someone would use them otherwise. A nonsmoker buying nicotine gum would be just as crazy. I can't imagine anyone being naive enough to think that nicotine by itself is a good thing, except as a step towards getting rid of a preexisting nicotine addiction.

Nicotine itself is a stimulant with few health risks, the main problem with tobacco is the burning plant matter. Nicotine itself occurs naturally in many foods, such as tomatoes.

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#254

Post by zamalek » Fri, Nov 04, 2016, 7:44 PM UTC

paulmd wrote: post #248

zamalek wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Thus the tobacco companies are happy to lobby against e-cigarettes I saw this on Reddit a while back, someone pointed out that "we get it, you vape" was probably introduced by tobacco companies to create a stigma around the practice. I'm a quitting smoker, on vape (RBA) and it bloody works. If only there were such great tools for quitting other addictions.

In my experience the stereotype exists for a reason. Let's take Grover Norquist as an example. The man is a dedicated crusader who hasn't stopped pounding the tax-reform drum for 20 years. Know what he thinks will decide the next election? Know what he was tweeting about during the debates? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/grover-norquist-2016-vap... https://twitter.com/grovernorquist/status/780604428751630336 htt…

I have no bearing on the "hardcore" vaping community. It's a tool, I am using it to quit. If vaping was outlawed due to legislation I'm worried I'd have to rely on will alone (which has so far failed me). Irrespective of practice or belief, there are people who take things too far. The words of one nut are not representative of the entire community.

"We get it, you vape" is a logical fallacy. Why? It is so trivial to draw a corollary from that incredibly naive statement: you are implicitly voicing support for people acquiring cancer - althought I certainly don't believe that is what you meant to say. This falls under the logical fallacy of "black and white." Things are not so simple, especially so far as the behavior of one vocal minority is concerned.

By pure autonomous volition, I vape away from other people (generally in the company of other smokers in the allocated areas) because I know that the vapor generally clings to skin. It makes you clammy in warm weather. It's not sociable. So you're going to throw someone who is trying their level best to use this quitting aid in a respectable manner into the same bag as Norquist?

150 mutations per year in my lungs[1] x 7 years of smoking = 1050 mutations. I hope to God that I stopped soon enough. I'm so fortunate to have such an easy route out - it's not 1200 or 1350 mutations.

The inability to downvote responses on HN forces me to contemplate a correct response. This is the extremely rare occasion, maybe the first, that I wish it was possible.

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12870712

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#255

Post by SpliffnCola » Fri, Nov 04, 2016, 7:53 PM UTC

acedinlowball wrote: post #251

SpliffnCola wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I highly recommend Vapejoose, they have 120ml bottles for $23.99, sometimes $20, and they offer free shipping over $50. Three 120ml bottles last me close to an entire month. Local stores around here are also a rip-off (near Austin, Texas).

360ml a month?? That's more than 10ml a day! I know you're going to disagree and try to convince me otherwise, but that is an INSANE amount of liquid.

Hah yeah I agree it's absurd! However I enjoy vaping and it helps to calm anxiety that I get from my bipolar.

I should try and cut back some and reduce my nicotine dosage of 1.5mg down to 0mg but I don't mind the nicotine.

I'm also addicted to coffee so about 2-3 full Yeti cups a day. Woe is me!

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#256

Post by SpliffnCola » Fri, Nov 04, 2016, 8:06 PM UTC

SOLAR_FIELDS wrote: post #203

SpliffnCola wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I highly recommend Vapejoose, they have 120ml bottles for $23.99, sometimes $20, and they offer free shipping over $50. Three 120ml bottles last me close to an entire month. Local stores around here are also a rip-off (near Austin, Texas).

Thanks for the rec - I also hail from Austin so we are venting about the same obscenties :)

You're welcome! I live "near" Austin in that I live in Red Rock (no no not Round Rock).

Vaping is something I do A LOT of while post-processing photos! Do you perhaps have a photographic interest?

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#257

Post by paulmd » Sat, Nov 05, 2016, 3:23 AM UTC

zamalek wrote: post #254

paulmd wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience the stereotype exists for a reason. Let's take Grover Norquist as an example. The man is a dedicated crusader who hasn't stopped pounding the tax-reform drum for 20 years. Know what he thinks will decide the next election? Know what he was tweeting about during the debates? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/grover-norquist-2016-vap... https://twitter.com/grovernorquist/status/780604428751630336 htt…

I have no bearing on the "hardcore" vaping community. It's a tool, I am using it to quit. If vaping was outlawed due to legislation I'm worried I'd have to rely on will alone (which has so far failed me). Irrespective of practice or belief, there are people who take things too far. The words of one nut are not representative of the entire community. "We get it, you vape" is a logical fallacy. Why? It is so trivial to…

I agree that vaping should be at least as legal as cigarettes if not more so. It's unquestionably safer and nicotine consumed in this fashion is very low-risk overall, probably no moreso than commonly prescribed stimulants, khat, or even caffeine.

However, it's stupid to claim that the stereotype came out of nowhere, or was a conspiracy from the tobacco industry. People who vape are typically at least as vocal and outspoken about it as stoners (note: marijuana should also be legal). It's pretty natural for it to be the butt of jokes.

The same thing really applies to the vape community. They are outspoken if not militant (and I don't disagree that's a good thing given the recent steps against it). I agree that it should be legal, go ahead and start a petition and I'll sign it. But holy shit it doesn't make you special, it's a personal decision/affectation/vice and nobody actually cares. I don't go around telling people about my stimulant consumption, and I certainly don't go around pretending it will decide the this election. With apologies to vegans:

Q: "How do you know if someone vapes?"

A: "Don't worry. They'll tell you."

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#258

Post by jwr » Sat, Nov 05, 2016, 10:20 AM UTC

x1798DE wrote: post #221

jwr wrote: post #189

Safe or not for smokers, non-smokers should certainly not have to inhale the same substances that smokers do. I find it alarming that e-cigarette marketing managed to convince smokers that what gets exhaled is just "water vapor", and thus they can now smoke anywhere they want.

I don't understand. In my experience these vaporizers don't have any sort of smoke that lingers around and there is no unpleasant sensation associated with breathing around ecigarette users like there is with tobacco. Even if there is more than water vapor in there, I feel like it's very unlikely that I'd be getting any sort of significant dose from their exhalations, so why should I care if they smoke inside?

Are you being serious? Just google for "e-cigarette smoke harmful" and pick any of the papers that you get. Serious stuff, NHS-sponsored research and the like.

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#259

Post by nemacol » Mon, Nov 07, 2016, 9:07 PM UTC

oxide wrote: post #120

nemacol wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is my experience as well. 10 years of smoking analogs lead me to ecigs. Used ecig for 3 years. Went from 18mg to 0 in the last 6 months of me using. Continued using 0 nic for 2 months. Now I am 8 months clean of all nicotine products and 6 months clean of ecigs in general. It was easy because of how gradual it was and that I was still able to satisfy the oral habit of smoking while kicking the chemical dependenc…

Personally, I didn't want to give up nicotine. I just wanted to give up cigarettes. So that's what I did. I took my carton money for the month and invested in a proper setup after doing my research. I spent time trying different juices until I found one I could use all day, every day. That was 2 years ago. Everyone around me still smokes, but I've never even been tempted to go back. I smoked for 10 years as well.

That is wonderful. Glad you were able to kick the habit. Same with me- my intention was never to stop smoking... it just kind of happened. :D

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#260

Post by nemacol » Mon, Nov 07, 2016, 9:09 PM UTC

tome wrote: post #149

nemacol wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is my experience as well. 10 years of smoking analogs lead me to ecigs. Used ecig for 3 years. Went from 18mg to 0 in the last 6 months of me using. Continued using 0 nic for 2 months. Now I am 8 months clean of all nicotine products and 6 months clean of ecigs in general. It was easy because of how gradual it was and that I was still able to satisfy the oral habit of smoking while kicking the chemical dependenc…

> Went from 18mg to 0 in the last 6 months of me using. Continued using 0 nic for 2 months. Now I am 8 months clean of all nicotine products and 6 months clean of ecigs in general. Congratulations! But being a non-smoker, I don't understand. Can you explain why you couldn't have cut down on nicotine by just smoking fewer cigarettes per day?

As other have said better than I could have - analogs are more of a one size one dose kind of thing.

PLUS To change your dose you have to change your habit. With Ecig, to change the dose you just buy a different product, but your day to day (hour to hour) habits are the same as always.