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Dalai Lama: Behind Our Anxiety, the Fear of Being Unneeded

nytimes.com

211–220 of 278 posts

Re: Dalai Lama: Behind Our Anxiety, the Fear of Being Unneeded

#211
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But those 200 years have been far from peaceful.

Yeah but that wasn't the immigrant's fault. Quite the opposite actually. Ruling white people are a major source of the history of violence.

Do you even read what you write. I see comments like this all over the internet and it amazes me how the irony of your statement completely eludes you.

You basic argument is that immigrant culture has no effect on violence but the culture of another group(the white people) does. Ok, so in that case, nations completely ruled by the culture the immigrants comes from, must inherently be free of major violence. Hmmm does that sound correct.

If anything, the west post world war 2 bred a new culture that gave birth to true liberty. The democracies formed in this period shaped the freedoms we have today, and pushed for human rights and equality. There is still progress to make, but targeting groups of people is no solution.

Btw I am Indian, and if you want to argue that ruling whites are a source of major violence, just go and read the history of India from 1000-1800. No white people, lots and lots of violence. All races are the same.

Re: Dalai Lama: Behind Our Anxiety, the Fear of Being Unneeded

#212

Yes, the poorest among us are materially well-off, by any historical comparison. Yet the article speaks to how we're doing psychologically and spiritually. It's a little glib to tell people they'd better get happy and appreciate how much better we have it than ye olde folks of yore. Trump has gotten this far by stirring up rust belt fears of human obsolescence. Less-educated white males are seeing their place in soci…

> It's a little glib to tell people they'd better get happy and appreciate how much better we have it than ye olde folks of yore. You are speaking for the Dalai Lama's intent with this blaming statement. "Glib" is Germanic and means "slippery". And while only he can speak to whether he is being slippery or not with his words, given the words themselves do not blame I doubt that is the case here. However, the Dalai La…

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=glib+definition

Re: Dalai Lama: Behind Our Anxiety, the Fear of Being Unneeded

#213
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that immigrants “don’t fit together” with existing Americans is rhetoric pitched toward places where there are few immigrants, making the immigrants a convenient scapegoat / bogeyman because they can’t answer back. The places with substantial immigrant populations are mostly getting along just fine. Jim and Deb Fallows have recently been doing a nice bit of traveling around the US writing about this and simi…

That's nice, but it suffers from a few defects: - apparently I've committed the sin of having sympathy for the other side, so I must agree with them - if it's rhetoric then it's also independent invention because I certainly didn't get it anywhere and never meant to imply it; I only expressed a certain possible flaw in a purportedly logical argument, and there are others (eg that higher housing prices specifically ca…

[deleted]

Re: Dalai Lama: Behind Our Anxiety, the Fear of Being Unneeded

#214
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that immigrants “don’t fit together” with existing Americans is rhetoric pitched toward places where there are few immigrants, making the immigrants a convenient scapegoat / bogeyman because they can’t answer back. The places with substantial immigrant populations are mostly getting along just fine. Jim and Deb Fallows have recently been doing a nice bit of traveling around the US writing about this and simi…

That's nice, but it suffers from a few defects: - apparently I've committed the sin of having sympathy for the other side, so I must agree with them - if it's rhetoric then it's also independent invention because I certainly didn't get it anywhere and never meant to imply it; I only expressed a certain possible flaw in a purportedly logical argument, and there are others (eg that higher housing prices specifically ca…

I think you’re taking my comment rather more personally than is reasonable. I don’t have any idea what you believe, who you sympathize with, etc.

You said “Cohesion of the whole can be impaired despite all the parts being of good quality, if they do not fit together very well.”

This sort of vague analogy has been a common rhetorical device used by anti-immigrant populists trying to stir up nativist resentment for 150+ years, without any strong evidence that it’s true. I’m calling the specific sentence out for being usually, in my opinion, toxic nonsense.

* * *

To answer your previous points:

As for the effect of immigration on labor markets during the Gilded Age, I’m not enough of an expert to say. That sounds like a topic which could fill a few academic research careers in labor history and produce several books (or probably has).

On the other hand, the research I’ve seen about low-skill immigration from Latin America in the past few decades has seemed reasonably convincing that such immigration has not had dramatic downward effects on wages for native workers and on average has boosted local wages by strengthening the economy generally, and that downward pressure on wages for unskilled factory work, etc., has a lot more to do with other factors (changes to labor law, global trade, automation, etc.). There’s obviously a lot of debate and controversy about the precise details.

> Germany, Ireland, Italy, Poland, etc weren't drastically more corrupt than the United States a hundred years ago, were they?

Well, they were all feudal societies with a landed aristocracy ruling by force of arms, with most of the migrants being rural peasant farmers driven off the land (often forcibly) and forced to migrate abroad due to population growth and lack of local employment opportunities. I’m not sure what you count as “corrupt”. In my opinion everything about a feudal society is inherently corrupt.

The situation of peasant farmers fleeing these countries is actually remarkably similar to the situation of migrants from southern Mexico in the 1980s–2000s. If you took my Irish ancestor’s story from the mid-19th century and set it side by side with the story of a rural Mexican peasant migrant from 1995, and changed all the names in both stories, you wouldn’t be able to tell which one was which.

Re: Dalai Lama: Behind Our Anxiety, the Fear of Being Unneeded

#215
post #75

It's odd, the world is the safest and most stable that it has ever been. There has never been a better time to be a human being, and yet, the media and certain politicians would have you believe that there is disaster after disaster, terrorist plots afoot around every corner, feeding your fear day after day. If ever there was an example of the devil at work, then that's it(and I'm not even religious). Uncertainty abo…

That's ignoring risks. It's like being the richest you've ever been in 2007. True but not reassuring. We have nukes, very worrying demographic trends in the west with massive migrations, and a declining hegemon. We're comfortable but fragile. What I want to say is that Taleb seems to have a better handle on things than Pinker.

It's totally not.

One thing I think this conversation has highlighted is the way we think about risks to us as individuals and risks to us as a species. So whilst in the past, the thing that worried most people was illness, predation, starvation, conflict (and in parts of the world this is happening, but they are the exception) Now our worries are expressed in nuclear war and climate change.

Perhaps in the future those global worries will manifest and it will be the worst time to be a human, but right now it is the safest. Less war, less famine, less disease, more food, better health.

I totally get that this statement flies in the face of what most people experience in their everyday reality - I feel that emotional pain as well - so whilst our physical wellbeing has improved, our ability to manage our own feelings is still difficult.

Re: Dalai Lama: Behind Our Anxiety, the Fear of Being Unneeded

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These “cultural factors” have to do with strong social and economic institutions like public schools and libraries, reasonably fair and legitimate court systems, a free press and freedom of association, a somewhat accountable and accessible political system, stable and reasonably clearly defined property rights, highly functioning distribution networks for basic goods and services, a fluid job market with protection…

>There’s no evidence that immigrants (documented or undocumented) cause any more corruption or crime than native born residents. Indeed, the evidence we have in the USA generally suggests that first and second generation immigrants are less likely to break the law than other residents. The immigration restrictions are a big confounder here. The US is much more likely to let doctors and engineers immigrate. If these f…

The US has millions of undocumented immigrants, mainly from Latin America, who work as migrant agricultural laborers, factory workers, restaurant staff, and many other low-skill jobs. From what I remember (it’s been a while since I looked at the numbers and I don’t have a link off-hand), they are involved in crimes at a significantly lower rate than native citizens.

Re: Dalai Lama: Behind Our Anxiety, the Fear of Being Unneeded

#217
I am not certain the author of the article has identified the true cause/root of the problem. To me, the need to be needed is certainly important, but, I do not think that that need is the true cause of the anxiety described in the article. The way the western world has reacted to immigration and socio-political landscape currently obtaining is not well explained by the need to be needed as explained in the article.

To me, the need to be needed/fear of being unneeded takes a back seat to the idea of 'other'. The otherness of the migrants, of the new persons, the lack of 'connection' with them certinly is a better explanation than the feeling of being superflous.

My view is that if we, as humanity in general, could only see each other first as individuals and secondly as persons with intrinsic worth - basically treat each other as we would a treasured member of our family, their troubles with the same sense urgency with which we would treat our close friend, brother, sister in the exact same circumstances, then the world would be a better place for all.

But, it feels like this is naïve, not 'realistic' or 'practical' there is too much standing in the way, at least thats what it looks like to me when I attempt to do so. It gets overwhelming, emotionally anyway. To me, behind our anxiety, as humans, is the fear of what would happen if we truly saw others as though they were ourselves. Really and truly. I am not sure we can do so, because we would realize just how fucked up the world was. I for one would rather not, the shame, fear is too much. I would rather build a wall and tell myself there is not much I can do, I do not have enough to help, I would be disregarding my responsibilities. But I know the truth. I am just scared.

Re: Dalai Lama: Behind Our Anxiety, the Fear of Being Unneeded

#218
post #75

It's odd, the world is the safest and most stable that it has ever been. There has never been a better time to be a human being, and yet, the media and certain politicians would have you believe that there is disaster after disaster, terrorist plots afoot around every corner, feeding your fear day after day. If ever there was an example of the devil at work, then that's it(and I'm not even religious). Uncertainty abo…

That's ignoring risks. It's like being the richest you've ever been in 2007. True but not reassuring. We have nukes, very worrying demographic trends in the west with massive migrations, and a declining hegemon. We're comfortable but fragile. What I want to say is that Taleb seems to have a better handle on things than Pinker.

This is the truth, we've come a long way from a technological and materialistic standpoint, but we've also heavily, heavily stolen from the future, we've stolen from others.

People are losing their homes and livelihoods to deforestation, islands are being inundated with rising sea levels, fracking is polluting water tables and mass animal extinctions are a thing.

At some point the debt needs to be paid off, or we're probably going to be next.

Looking for a purpose? Give back to the natural world and I'm sure some happiness will come out of it!

God knows she needs our help.

Re: Dalai Lama: Behind Our Anxiety, the Fear of Being Unneeded

#219
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know. There was a study done recently among the Amish, who in many ways live like it's 1900. It found that they we're as happy as billionaires.

I'm presuming that should read "that they were as...". My first interpretation was that you were Amish yourself.

yep.

Re: Dalai Lama: Behind Our Anxiety, the Fear of Being Unneeded

#220
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What's worrisome about the immigration trends? Places like the US and Denmark are incredibly non-corrupt, while places like Russia, Brazil, and Nigeria are highly corrupt. Why some places are corrupt and others aren't is poorly understood magic of some sort. One fairly decent guess is something like "cultural factors" - Danish bureaucrats aren't corrupt because they expect that other non-corrupt Danes would punish t…

"the cultural norms that make our communities excellent places to live" In case anybody didn't know already, this is what dog whistle racism looks like

As someone who originated from a developing country and now resides in a developed one, there's much truth and not a lot of racism in that sentence.

It's not about race, it's about values, i.e. culture. Speak to an immigrant, they'd tell you this. My Aunts say it all the time - "I do miss home but we have such bad leaders....yes the food is terrible but life is so much simpler here.....people here are so trusting and kind".

Cultural norms are important and fascinating. Let's not hijack the opportunity for interesting conversation with accusations of racism.

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