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DeepMind and Blizzard to release StarCraft II as an AI research environment

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Re: DeepMind and Blizzard to release StarCraft II as an AI research environment

#211

Post by Plough_Jogger »

theptip wrote: post #122

This is pretty interesting. DeepMind’s last triumph (beating the best human Go players with AlphaGo) is impressive, but Go is a great fit for neural networks as they stand today; it’s stateless, so you can fully evaluate your position based on the state of the board at a given turn. That’s not a good fit for most real-world problems, where you have to remember something that happened in the past. E.g. the ‘fog of war…

There is a growing body of research surrounding deep reinforcement learning that would reject the idea that

"[ neural networks ] are not a good fit for most real-world problems, where you have to remember something that happened in the past."

Re: DeepMind and Blizzard to release StarCraft II as an AI research environment

#212

Post by tyrust »

stouset wrote: post #208
tyrust wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't played SC in a few years, but I think I can give a basic answer. There's would not be one optimal strategy, but many optimal strategies depending on the matchup between units. By taking advantages in differences in movement speed, attack range, attack projectile speed, and attack cooldown, a weaker group of units can potentially beat a stronger group. This is an older video that demonstrates some examples o…

Given that the game wasn't balanced for the possibility of infinite micro, I think it's highly probable that there's a globally optimal strategy.

Could you give an example of what that might look like?

Re: DeepMind and Blizzard to release StarCraft II as an AI research environment

#213

Post by jasikpark »

Comparing AI and humans in games is not useful unless all limitations are controlled for both parties. The artificial intelligence only gets the video output of the game and output to simple controls with a human reflex - like lag on how long it takes for the controls to take effect. It just comes down to the scientific method.

Re: DeepMind and Blizzard to release StarCraft II as an AI research environment

#214

Post by rezashirazian »

If DeepMind is planning on building an AI that can beat the best human SCII player, they have their work cut out for them.

I'm not sure how familiar people are with StarCraft II, but at the highest levels of the game, where player have mastered the mechanics, it's a mind game fueled by deceit, sophisticated and malleable planning, detecting subtle patterns (having a good gut feeling on what's going on) and on the pro scene knowledge of your opponent's style.

Re: DeepMind and Blizzard to release StarCraft II as an AI research environment

#215

Post by rezashirazian »

burke wrote: post #132
theptip wrote: post #122

This is pretty interesting. DeepMind’s last triumph (beating the best human Go players with AlphaGo) is impressive, but Go is a great fit for neural networks as they stand today; it’s stateless, so you can fully evaluate your position based on the state of the board at a given turn. That’s not a good fit for most real-world problems, where you have to remember something that happened in the past. E.g. the ‘fog of war…

> When Google’s AI can beat a human at StarCraft, it’s time to be very afraid. I don't actually agree with this. Unlike Go, StarCraft is not only a game of strategy; "micro" (micro-managed tactics, basically) also plays a big role. An AI is going to be able to issue a LOT more commands per second than even the most skilled humans, giving them a natural tactical advantage. Strategy is more difficult for an AI, but not…

I don't agree with this. This was more true with the original StarCraft but with SCII a lot of the fine graining micro is automated. And although the computer will be able to reach 1000s of APM, a solid strategy with perfect timing will defeat it.

It doesn't matter how well you split your zerglings or move your marines, when there are tanks busting through your front door.

Re: DeepMind and Blizzard to release StarCraft II as an AI research environment

#216

Post by empath75 »

qznc wrote: post #187
empath75 wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you don't imagine robots becoming self aware and deciding to kill humans on their own, you can imagine a fleet of drones and self-driving tanks controlled by a deep learning network. They don't need to understand what they're doing to make effective tactical decisions. If the US doesn't do this, someone else probably will. We're going to see an AI-based blitzkrieg attack in our lifetimes. Once you can launch…

We have not seen the bomb-carrying drones yet. That is entirely possible right now, but IS has not used that so far.

The us has been using them for decades.

Re: DeepMind and Blizzard to release StarCraft II as an AI research environment

#217

Post by thaumasiotes »

uw_rob wrote: post #116
thaumasiotes wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll consider APM "not high" when it gets down to 12. Two actions per second is comfortably "high".

That may be an ok definition for you, but it most certainly isn't for SC2. I wasn't anywhere near the pro level and I would peak at 300 apm and would spend most of the game around 200. 12 APM is borderline not playing.

Consider it a statement about what I'm looking for in a game. I'm not really interested in competing over who can work their mouse button harder, or in driving myself to excel in giving myself repetitive motion injuries. Those are things that take away from starcraft; they don't enhance it.

Re: DeepMind and Blizzard to release StarCraft II as an AI research environment

#218

Post by vladimirralev »

burke wrote: post #132
theptip wrote: post #122

This is pretty interesting. DeepMind’s last triumph (beating the best human Go players with AlphaGo) is impressive, but Go is a great fit for neural networks as they stand today; it’s stateless, so you can fully evaluate your position based on the state of the board at a given turn. That’s not a good fit for most real-world problems, where you have to remember something that happened in the past. E.g. the ‘fog of war…

> When Google’s AI can beat a human at StarCraft, it’s time to be very afraid. I don't actually agree with this. Unlike Go, StarCraft is not only a game of strategy; "micro" (micro-managed tactics, basically) also plays a big role. An AI is going to be able to issue a LOT more commands per second than even the most skilled humans, giving them a natural tactical advantage. Strategy is more difficult for an AI, but not…

It will not get to strategy in these games at all. I can already see the AI dominating any human player just by splitting army. Imagine a terran AI dropping at 4+ places at the same time, just 4-5 marines each. This can be done within the first 6-7 minutes and no human player will be able to hold. I know they limit the APM for AI but you can easily do such drop with very few APM if you simply react fast enough on damage events.

Re: DeepMind and Blizzard to release StarCraft II as an AI research environment

#220

Post by empath75 »

plg wrote: post #196

I understand the challenge, and the importance of the proof-of-principle. But again? Having done Atari games, then Go, at what point exactly does google deepmind start attacking some real world problems of consequence? Or maybe the answer is never, other companies are supposed to do the hard work? We only play games?

Solving toy problems in a limited domain is pretty important before you can tackle real world problems.
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