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You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

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Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#481
post #417
post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jumping directly to discrimination in society seems a bit hasted as an explanation for the data, since men entering the teaching profession also show the exact same data. When hitting a roadblock, men a several times more likely to quit the teaching profession than a woman hitting the same roadblock. Surely it not an issue of men knowing that they're worth something in and of themselves, competing against women in th…

Very interesting, I'd never heard that about male teachers quitting more often than females. I wonder if that holds true across different cultures? Here, at least, teaching is often seen as a bit of a fallback plan if you don't succeed at your chosen profession or you hit mid-20s and still don't know what you want to do. I like the diverging behaviour angle too. That actually sounds like it could have a serious impac…

If it culture has a major impact, it should be fairly testable. Any differences, after correlated to gender distribution in the work force, should hint to it.

Theories that can be tested to either be false or true is always valuable in this kind of discussions.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#482
Man. Why not just accept folks who might not yet be so good and train him/her. Of course determine if he/she is genuinely willing to learn. Looking at hobby projects should be an indicator that he/she is passionate on programming.

But of course, capitalism compels a company to hire only the best worker to get the most out of the usurped-capital.

What I wanna point out is. It would be great if it was common for companies to help out less skilled programmers. Helping others is more important than making profit.

The next time somebody asks me for help. I'll do my best use any surplus value out of the meager salary I get working here in a third world country.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically, most things have been terrible. There is no historical era I would like to live in more than the one we have now. Taking recent history, America has been enormously successful and prominent, especially in technology. And America, as a nation of immigrants, has unusually high levels of diversity and inclusion. What in modern America qualifies as non-diverse would still historically be very diverse. > Nob…

> Historically, most things have been terrible. There is no historical era I would like to live in more than the one we have now. Not even long history. I'm talking even our modern tech companies, where many were started out of a garage by a few very non-diverse people. > Taking recent history, America has been enormously successful and prominent, especially in technology. And America, as a nation of immigrants, has…

> Your comment I responded to asked for a contrary assertion.

No. No it did not. I asked oldmanjay if, having falsely criticized me for asserting things with evidence, he wanted to make a contrary assertion with evidence. This was a rhetorical device to draw an interlocutor out.

I neither asked for nor wanted an Internet random to offer half-baked, unevidenced pro-racist, pro-sexist waffle, thanks.

> I really think it's helpful for people in your position to be exposed to an alternative view.

Yes, because I never before would have encountered people justifying the status quo by suggesting that racism and sexism don't exist or, if they do, are in fact optimum. Surely, there is nowhere else on the internet I might have been exposed to an "alternate" view. I'm sure nobody on HN has ever taken that position, let alone in response to me. Gosh, thank you for bringing something new into the world.

> but it's not prudent to say politically incorrect things on an account linked to your real identity

My, aren't you the brave one. As we see in the US elections your opinions are indeed politically correct for a notable portion of the American electorate. They have been politically correct for most of American history.

What you're unwilling to do is to have a lot of people, the people you'd rather hang out with, think you an asshole. You lack the courage of your convictions. So instead of being openly pro-racism and pro-sexism, you'll do it quietly. Hoping, I presume, for the moment that the gang in white sheets get enough power that you can finally be "honest".

If you want me to take you seriously, own your words. The internet and HN have a custom of offering a free hood dispenser to anybody wanting to comment. But that you only feel comfortable opining from under a white hood should tell you something. It certainly tells me something.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Historically, most things have been terrible. There is no historical era I would like to live in more than the one we have now. Not even long history. I'm talking even our modern tech companies, where many were started out of a garage by a few very non-diverse people. > Taking recent history, America has been enormously successful and prominent, especially in technology. And America, as a nation of immigrants, has…

> Your comment I responded to asked for a contrary assertion. No. No it did not. I asked oldmanjay if, having falsely criticized me for asserting things with evidence, he wanted to make a contrary assertion with evidence. This was a rhetorical device to draw an interlocutor out. I neither asked for nor wanted an Internet random to offer half-baked, unevidenced pro-racist, pro-sexist waffle, thanks. > I really think i…

> I neither asked for nor wanted an Internet random to offer half-baked, unevidenced pro-racist, pro-sexist waffle, thanks.

There's nothing pro-racist or pro-sexist about what I said, but that's the world we live in. Making an argument for hiring the best person for the job is called racist and sexist. This is the cause for anonymity--people like you demonize those you disagree with.

> Yes, because I never before would have encountered people justifying the status quo by suggesting that racism and sexism don't exist or, if they do, are in fact optimum. Surely, there is nowhere else on the internet I might have been exposed to an "alternate" view. I'm sure nobody on HN has ever taken that position, let alone in response to me. Gosh, thank you for bringing something new into the world.

Your frustrated response at someone who would have the audacity to challenge your view reinforce the claim that it doesn't happen enough. It's much easier to sit in an echo chamber where everyone pats themselves on the backs about how progressive they are and how racist and backward everyone else is, but it's hard to step back and examine things rationally when called out on it.

But it's OK! You're under no obligation to respond to my (or anyone else's) comments. You can return to your safe space whenever you'd like.

> My, aren't you the brave one. As we see in the US elections your opinions are indeed politically correct for a notable portion of the American electorate. They have been politically correct for most of American history.

It's irrelevant. I don't want to limit my hiring options to people who agree with me politically.

> What you're unwilling to do is to have a lot of people, the people you'd rather hang out with, think you an asshole. You lack the courage of your convictions. So instead of being openly pro-racism and pro-sexism, you'll do it quietly. Hoping, I presume, for the moment that the gang in white sheets get enough power that you can finally be "honest".

No. I just don't want to be fired or miss out on a job opportunity because of political disagreements with the hiring team. I wouldn't endorse a political candidate on an account linked to my real identity, either. It's not prudent.

> If you want me to take you seriously, own your words. The internet and HN have a custom of offering a free hood dispenser to anybody wanting to comment. But that you only feel comfortable opining from under a white hood should tell you something. It certainly tells me something.

It should tell you that you and the people like you have been successful in demonizing anyone who disagrees with you. That's all.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#485
post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect that they're not calling you a superstar because you've passed four tech interviews, but because your foundations of CS aren't decaying. I work with a lot of teams as a contractor/consultant/whatever you want to call it. I often have to bite my tongue when team members that work for my clients forget what I believe are really simple things. For example, doing lookups in a hash vs an array. That was literall…

Interesting, but your case may really get at what may go wrong with the algorithm exam approach to interviewing. I would expect a developer with a good understanding of fundamentals to see the difference in using a hash vs an array, and I would hope that developer at one point implemented a hash as an exercise. I haven't needed to implement my own hashing table or methods on a real world project, as far as I can reme…

To address the last point, there's a tradeoff, as always. There's two competing forces with a hash function: speed and distribution. We want the hash to compute as quickly as possible, but want as close to equal probability of each bucket being chosen.

Assuming you're looking for a 32-bit hash value, my lazy whiteboard hash function would probably be something like:

- for strings, xor the bytes a word at a time.

- for ints, just use the 32-bit value

- for objects, let them provide their own, and if none is provided just use their memory address (this assumes that the objects don't have equality operators... that gets more complicated. If an object implements an equality operator, it also needs to implement a hash operator.)

These rules are by no means optimal, but they'd probably do as good enough for something that's not super high performance.

It also bears keeping in mind, I learned C twenty years ago, at the tender age of 12. Self-taught from the book that came with the compiler floppy[1]. We wouldn't have Internet at home for another 2 years, so I would occasionally persuade my parents to take me to a local Internet cafe for an hour to slurp up as much as I could at 28.8kbps and scribble it down. Bit manipulation operators are pretty deep in my soul at this point.

---

So going back to the original discussion... that came pretty natural to me. "How would I implement a hash function?" The brain whirrs a little bit and says "hey, here's some things to think about". I am 100% aware that this isn't typical, and do not expect others to have the same experience.

In fact, if I were hiring someone, I would be totally satisfied with an answer of "I'm not sure how to implement a hash function off the top of my head. It takes the object/value that we're going to insert into the hash table and turns it into a number that we can use to index into the appropriate bucket. Can we look one up?"

Hell, I'd probably be satisfied with "Here's when I'd use a hash table, and here's when I'd use an array. I've never implemented a hash table but I'd love to know how it works under the hood."

For me when hiring, the two biggest things I'm looking for are the ability to decompose problems into manageable parts, and a curiosity about how everything works. Those two things together tend to make any other knowledge gaps totally manageable; I'm not omniscient, but my desire to learn as much as I can about anything I don't understand can sometimes give off that illusion :P.

[1] http://www.mixsoftware.com/product/powerc.htm

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#486
post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect that they're not calling you a superstar because you've passed four tech interviews, but because your foundations of CS aren't decaying. I work with a lot of teams as a contractor/consultant/whatever you want to call it. I often have to bite my tongue when team members that work for my clients forget what I believe are really simple things. For example, doing lookups in a hash vs an array. That was literall…

Do you have any online resource that could tell me what these foundations of CS are?

This, I think, is what is called "the Curse of Knowledge". I've taught 2nd year (Assembly) and 3rd year (Intro to Operating Systems Concepts) CS courses quite successfully, but I would have a helluva time teaching a 1st year course.

Like I mentioned in the sibling thread, I've been programming C for twenty years, and learned BASIC on a Vic-20 four yearsish earlier than that (at age 8). I learned all of that from library books.

Mostly, my algorithm for learning almost anything is "look at something that is somewhat magical, and figure out how it works inside". I've been doing that for years and years. Questions like "who programs BASIC? And how?" lead to learning about assembly. "How does BASIC store my program in memory?" "How does it translate what I type into output on the screen?" Etc.

Not to ramble on... unfortunately, I don't know of such a resource, and I don't really know what material it'd cover if I wrote it.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#487
post #470
post #375

So because some people are easy quitters you should just drop a very important metric from the interview process? Sometimes i think that "diversity consultant" is code word for mentally handicapped...

> Sometimes i think that "diversity consultant" is code word for mentally handicapped... This is not the kind of civil discussion the guidelines ask us to have on Hacker News. Please don't post like this. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I don't think that it violates any of those, but on the otherhand your post does violate the rules for comments.

I was trying to make a point relevant to the OP, that 'diversity consultancy' is a job title comparable to 'snake oil salesman'

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#488
post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, but your case may really get at what may go wrong with the algorithm exam approach to interviewing. I would expect a developer with a good understanding of fundamentals to see the difference in using a hash vs an array, and I would hope that developer at one point implemented a hash as an exercise. I haven't needed to implement my own hashing table or methods on a real world project, as far as I can reme…

To address the last point, there's a tradeoff, as always. There's two competing forces with a hash function: speed and distribution. We want the hash to compute as quickly as possible, but want as close to equal probability of each bucket being chosen. Assuming you're looking for a 32-bit hash value, my lazy whiteboard hash function would probably be something like: - for strings, xor the bytes a word at a time. - fo…

Well, here's the thing - I've been on a lot of interviews, and the majority of them wouldn't be satisfied with the answers you'd be satisfied with. If interviewers were the way you've described, I don't think the whole thing would be such an issue.

Overall, yeah, interviewers want to see that hash map largely written, often at a white board. Minor errors and bits of pseudocode are ok, but it should pretty much work.

YMMV, of course, but it isn't just me.

http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/03/get-that-job-at-goog...

"Hashtables: hashtables are arguably the single most important data structure known to mankind. You absolutely have to know how they work. Again, it's like one chapter in one data structures book, so just go read about them. You should be able to implement one using only arrays in your favorite language, in about the space of one interview."

Of course, Steve Yegge isn't the final word on prepping for google interviews, and I only had one experience there myself, but yeah, I'd say he's pretty spot on here (in fact, the google recruiter who arranged my interviews forwarded me the Yegge blog post, though I'd already read it earlier).

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#489
post #480
post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"since men entering the teaching profession also show the exact same data" This is really interesting, could you provide a citation?

Yes I can. But first I would like to say that I could too just have requested citation from the parent comment and be done. Finding papers you read a month/year/years ago take times, and links goes sometimes dead, and in a online forum like this it is generally appreciated if the requester has done some initial attempts themselves to search online for sources. Anyway, it was a polite request and I happened to save th…

"I could too just have requested citation from the parent comment and be done"

Been done with what? Yes, I know, sometimes people say "citation please" as a way of refuting without reasoning, but other times, people are actually interested in reading the citation. This is one of those cases.

Furthermore, this is not one of those cases would something could be easily established through a quick google search, this sounds like a very specific study.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#490
post #469
post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe, but I had to implement Hoare partition scheme which is used in Quicksort a few months ago. If I didn't know Quicksort I wouldn't probably have an idea that this algorithm existed.

I had to write my own tree traversal once. If I didn't know about trees, I wouldn't have had the basic context to do this. But I did have to spend a few hours looking up and refreshing my knowledge of tree traversal. If I'd taken a technical interview exam on tree traversal prior to that four hours or refreshing my memory, I almost certainly would have failed. And yet I within the day I was able to write the code.

That's at least partially because you knew where to look; you'd already learnt the material at some point, so you knew what to be looking for.
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