Live data from Hacker News

Smoking “causes hundreds of DNA changes”

bbc.com

31–40 of 259 posts

Re: Smoking “causes hundreds of DNA changes”

#31
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Evolution doesn't have a high or low state, or a linear progression. It's a natural process that is random and responsive to environment changes, not progressing towards an ideal.

If mutation is the engine of evolution, an increase in mutation should mean an increase in the speed of evolution. Obviously not on the scales we're talking about here, but the premise doesn't seem too unsound, external pressures being equal.

The premise is highly unsound. This study is talking about somatic mutations, which can only be harmful to an organism. Why? Because they can be beneficial to an individual selfish somatic cell, which is what we can cancer. In other words, when a somatic mutation is succesful, it spreads and becomes cancer. And of it doesn't spread, it can't have a serious impact on the phenotype of an entire organism.

So, the mutations discussed in the article have nothing to do with evolution, because they are somatic, and not passed on to offsprig. But even if smoking caused germ cell line mutations, it's also important to note that "highly evolved" is a mostly nonsensical phrase that has no real meaning, and there is absolutely no guarantee that any individual germ line mutations would confer a selective advantage to the off-spring- in fact, the majority of the time, specific mutations are neutral or harmful. Thus, even if smoking did increase the mutation rate in the germ line of a smoker, any given smoker kid would probably just have more problems than benefits. And because mutation rate is (maybe this is somewhat controversial) a phenotype that can and has evolved into itself, changing it artificially through smoking would likely result in a net reduction in "evolvability" as it has been called. Anyways these are all long term (and I mean LONG) population level effects and have nothing to do with individuals being "more evolved".

Just trying to make the point that the original assumption was three times removed from a sound understanding of evolution and showed some pretty big misconceptions.

Re: Smoking “causes hundreds of DNA changes”

#32
post #29
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In USA, families on welfare benefits are also often the largest families. Being laid more is irrelevant if it does not result in a child. It's more reason as to why evolution is simply not a factor in the modern world. Also, why do you say 'some'? It would stop all negative mutations, as all people are given the ability to reproduce. Your argument seems to be that people with negative mutations would not be attractiv…

You have already said some people have larger families than others and these people have differences than others thus contradicting your premise where there is no longer evolution in human genes.

I never said there is no evolution? I said there is no longer a link between positive and negative traits and the ability of someone to reproduce. Whether someone has positive or negative mutations is no longer a factor in their survival, and so there is no natural selection of positive traits.

There is definitely no contradiction there. Genes will still evolve, but it will no longer be through a process of natural finding the most positive genes. Or I'd guess you could say that we will now evolve towards genes that enable the largest families. And the largest families are predominantly in poor suburbs. The actual environment is artificial though, as those families would not be able to survive on their own without support. Taken to an extreme, it would technically be 'evolution to destruction' by selecting for negative traits that make it impossible to survive outside of the safety net. Luckily we're nowhere near that kind of extreme.

Re: Smoking “causes hundreds of DNA changes”

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If mutation is the engine of evolution, an increase in mutation should mean an increase in the speed of evolution. Obviously not on the scales we're talking about here, but the premise doesn't seem too unsound, external pressures being equal.

The premise is highly unsound. This study is talking about somatic mutations, which can only be harmful to an organism. Why? Because they can be beneficial to an individual selfish somatic cell, which is what we can cancer. In other words, when a somatic mutation is succesful, it spreads and becomes cancer. And of it doesn't spread, it can't have a serious impact on the phenotype of an entire organism. So, the mutati…

"Can only be harmful" is pretty strong. You could have a set of mutations in a T-Cell for example that makes it super good at killing all forms of cancer.

Re: Smoking “causes hundreds of DNA changes”

#34
post #9

How addictive is tobacco/smoking as compared to Opiates/Heroin?

Not exactly an answer to your question, but some years ago (2010) this report was made in the UK about the Harm Caused By Drugs:

http://media.economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/or...

Edit: here another chart showing the 'dependence' of tobacco is very high:

http://medicalmarijuana.procon.org/files/1-medical-marijuana...

Re: Smoking “causes hundreds of DNA changes”

#35
while there are some studies that do not put marijuana smoking as high on the danger list [1] I am really curious that as legalization increases what will we see in the future. Then of course there is the loosely regulated area of vaping and who knows what is in some of those fluids. For the most part I am quite sure they have to be safer than smoking but I would love some hard regulation.

2005 study on marijuana smoke > https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1277837/

Re: Smoking “causes hundreds of DNA changes”

#36
post #30
post #27

This has some legal implications. You can now prove fairly conclusively that your lung cancer came from smoking. I wonder if it will lead to a new wave of tobacco litigation. I think even Fisher would be convinced [1]. [1] https://priceonomics.com/why-the-father-of-modern-statistics...

I'm not sure that this could prove that. I believe that the mutation rate for non-smokers that develop lung cancer should be elevated as well. Perhaps there is a statistical difference, but it might not be easy to prove with certainty.

The tobacco signature goes beyond elevated rate, it has a sequence specific pattern (see http://cancer.sanger.ac.uk/cosmic/signatures).

Re: Smoking “causes hundreds of DNA changes”

#37
post #25

I wonder if drinking does the same?

I wonder if there is just about anything (other than water) that you can put in your body that wouldn't have some effect on the mutation rate of some particular cells in your body.

Plants, fruits, starchy vegetables..

Re: Smoking “causes hundreds of DNA changes”

#38
post #17
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's definitely not obvious. I would agree that mutations due to smoking could be in majority harmful due to the chemical components and the high temperatures involved. Other than that, a mutation is a mutation, whether due to smoke, nuclear irradiation, high altitude, or chance. In all cases, they can be beneficial or harmful. The evolution process will then cause only the beneficial ones to perdure.

> The evolution process will then cause only the beneficial ones to perdure. This isn't correct and is a common misconception about evolution. The process which does this is natural selection, and it only occurs through the organism being unable to reproduce as well as an organism with beneficial evolutionary changes. With humans in the modern world, there is no natural selection because of state benefits that keep p…

Another common misconception is that evolution can only occur via natural selection. Assortative mating[1] can still drive evolution for segments of the population, if not necessarily the whole population.

Also, the entire world does not have modern safety nets, not even close.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assortative_mating

Re: Smoking “causes hundreds of DNA changes”

#39
post #25

I wonder if drinking does the same?

I wonder if there is just about anything (other than water) that you can put in your body that wouldn't have some effect on the mutation rate of some particular cells in your body.

It might be that anything consumed in excess, over long periods of time, causes mutations in your body. Just a theory.

Re: Smoking “causes hundreds of DNA changes”

#40
What the author was smoking? 20 a day of what? Cigarettes? These things have nothing to do with tobacco. Cigarettes are purely synthetical things. The real research could compare say, avid snus user with cigars smoker with pipe smoker with cigarettes smoker with marijuana smoker, with non smoker exposed to industrial work, with non-smoker exposed to work in civil construction, and so on. Poor isolation of factors and lack of statistics are signs of fake research.
Post reply on HN