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Why America Needs India’s Rockets

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Re: Why America Needs India’s Rockets

#131
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By this definition is Ukraine the aggressor in eastern Ukraine?

By which definition? The "you could argue" definition that I don't agree with? Or my "personally, I would consider" definition? By the latter, if country A is arming/training/providing insurgents in country B with no previous attacks by B on A, then A is the aggressor. So in the eastern Ukraine case Russia would be the aggressor.

How do you classify overt and covert military activity by a nation whose territory has been annexed towards the nation that did the annexation? Is it an act of aggression?

Re: Why America Needs India’s Rockets

#132
post #34
post #13

One of the things I always struggle to understand is whenever ISRO get mentioned people jump on US vs India salaries. We live in a world where globalization has changed everything. See what happened to Solar industry when China started dumping cheap solar panels across the global market. Auto manufacturing, software business and many other sectors it is a very common practice. If you have a target of launching someth…

TLDR: They're two different agencies that have different cabailities and responsibilities. Other than logistics cost NASA's rockets have much higher payloads (think 100 tons vs 10 tons), number of rockets available, number of satellites launched into space (but I think ISRO technically has a better success rate), deep space missions and research(ISRO recently sent its first MARS rover), space stations, manned mission…

ISRO is moving towards it's first manned mission as well. It recently tested it's first Reusable Launch System: RLV-TD (Launch video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzxe6q60R70)

Re: Why America Needs India’s Rockets

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ISRO doesn't appear to pay competitive salaries for engineers. The Russian space program had a lot of challenges when engineering wages went up a lot. India's success with outsourcing and other engineering is the cause. It will be interesting to see what ISRO's costs look like when increased salaries ripple through their workforce. BTW there are several startups targeting small satellites. One is the Electron rocket…

When you say "ISRO doesn't appear to pay competitive salaries for engineers" who are you comparing with? SpaceX/NASA? ISRO pays competitive salaries for engineers. At least as per Indian pay scale. Most ISRO scientists/engineers lead a comfortable life. You can't compare the pay scale of a SpaceX/NASA employee with that of ISRO employee because the economies of both countries are vastly different. Also, SpaceX/NASA w…

I was comparing to Indian salaries. For example, as you're probably aware, the outsourcing industry has caused a rapid rise in computer engineering salaries in India. A similar thing happened in Russia already.

I only referred to small launches because you mentioned them.

If you're interested in Indian rockets with larger payloads, you might be interested in checking out the GLSV Mark III, which is expected to reach production long before the RLV-TD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geosynchronous_Satellite_Launc...

I read about both the GSLV Mark III and RLV-TD in Western news sources.

I'm a big fan of India's space program, but it's very tedious getting downvoted on HN for talking about it.

Re: Why America Needs India’s Rockets

#134
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The assertions of incompetence of Indian PSU's are not without merit, although I think you are taking a rather pessimistic view of institutions. First of all, there are a whole lot of talented engineers in India, simply because of the population itself. Few go to the top colleges that you speak of and graduating from there doesn't necessarily mean they are the "best". So you can't take a lack of graduates from those…

That's true; indeed, the fact that ISRO does so well supports what you claim. That however does not contradict the fact that India's exam system also filters out a lot of smart people, and trains them really well... most of whom have historically have left for the US.

That trend slowed down a long time ago. There are as many smart people in India as there are in the US. Those who migrated/are migrating to the US, migrate for greener pastures. There is no reason to believe that those who migrate to US are necessarily better than their Indian counterparts. In fact, I know quite a few who got calls from top-tier colleges in US (Stanford/Harvard etc) but chose to stay back in India and launch their own startups.

Re: Why America Needs India’s Rockets

#135
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> India is now part of MCTR (Missile Control Technology Regime) that limits ICBM development. So that's no longer a valid concern. That's regime sounds like a great intent, but the simple fact is that taking a satellite launching rocket, replacing the satellite with a nuke, and aiming it back at the ground somewhere is trivial.

You are underestimating how much importance world politicians give to pieces of paper that mean shit for commonsense. Do you think it is hard for a country like India to send a small nuke to USA and blow it off ? They can send it via ship, commercial jets and what not. The point of MCTR is to prevent a nation from openly admitting they have such a weapon and hence it can not be used as an argument in any future negot…

The issue isn't India performing a terrorist strike agains the US. They'd love to send nuclear missiles to Pakistan, though.

Re: Why America Needs India’s Rockets

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you say "ISRO doesn't appear to pay competitive salaries for engineers" who are you comparing with? SpaceX/NASA? ISRO pays competitive salaries for engineers. At least as per Indian pay scale. Most ISRO scientists/engineers lead a comfortable life. You can't compare the pay scale of a SpaceX/NASA employee with that of ISRO employee because the economies of both countries are vastly different. Also, SpaceX/NASA w…

I was comparing to Indian salaries. For example, as you're probably aware, the outsourcing industry has caused a rapid rise in computer engineering salaries in India. A similar thing happened in Russia already. I only referred to small launches because you mentioned them. If you're interested in Indian rockets with larger payloads, you might be interested in checking out the GLSV Mark III, which is expected to reach…

But you just can't compare private company salaries with government salaries. The perks that are enjoyed by government employees far outweighs that enjoyed by private employees. You might be tempted to think that private employees get "x" times more than government employees and they should be better. But that is not how it works in India. If you are a private employee there is a possibility of getting fired. If you are fired, getting a job again is akin to going through hell. If you have a home loan from a bank you are doomed.

Government employees in India are the blessed lot. They of course have lesser salary but the perks they enjoy more than make up for it. They get free housing for life, pension after retirement, free insurance, they can purchase land at extremely subsidized rates (which for a private employee would be his entire life savings). You just can't compare salaries. Especially in a country like India.

EDIT: Not to mention: If you are a government employee your social life is set. You can easily get married (not easy for a private employee. You have to be in a top MNC and earning a big salary or have a graduate degree from a top-tier university in India). Your entire family is covered by Government insurance for lifetime (which for a private employee ends as soon as his employment terminates). In some cases, your next kith and kin are guaranteed a government job in case you pass away prematurely.

Also, a Government job is the most sought after in India. There is major competition to get a government job (I have even heard of cases where people bribed officials to get the job). Private employees on the other hand demand greater salaries just to be on par with government employees (whose salary + perks are far greater than private employees salary). Apart from that, a Government employee cannot be prematurely terminated (even if s/he is lazy) unless s/he has committed a grave crime.

Re: Why America Needs India’s Rockets

#137
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has not remotely lost the ability to launch people in the context you're suggesting (lost knowledge, lost budget, lost political will). Its literally between launch systems. NASA has failed at how many launch system projects since the Space Shuttle?

In a startup failing and iterating is a goal . Why should this be different in a government organisation? (Assuming you learn from your failures)

If you could before, and can't now, isn't that pretty much a definition of "losing it"?

Re: Why America Needs India’s Rockets

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A typical liquid fueled satellite launching platform would make a very poor ICBM. Liquid fueled rockets can't be stored fully fueled. The fuel is extremely volatile and slowly seeps out of the tanks. This means you have to store it empty, adding a huge launch delay. ICBMs use much more stable fuels so they can sit in a silo for years on end. This requires totally different engines and fuel tanks. tldr: You can't just…

Some liquid fueled rockets can be used more-or-less effectively as an ICBM. Despite being extremely volatile, rocket engines powered by hypergolic and room-temperature liquid fuels/oxidizer mixes can be stored fueled in silos for long periods of time. The notable example of this is the Titan II ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGM-25C_Titan_II ) whiched served as the primary ICBM for the U.S. for 20-odd years (with so…

Yeah, I may have spoke too soon. After reading up on the India's PSLV rocket, it doesn't appear to use any cryogenic fuels or oxidizers. Maybe it could be used as an ICBM...

Re: Why America Needs India’s Rockets

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was comparing to Indian salaries. For example, as you're probably aware, the outsourcing industry has caused a rapid rise in computer engineering salaries in India. A similar thing happened in Russia already. I only referred to small launches because you mentioned them. If you're interested in Indian rockets with larger payloads, you might be interested in checking out the GLSV Mark III, which is expected to reach…

But you just can't compare private company salaries with government salaries. The perks that are enjoyed by government employees far outweighs that enjoyed by private employees. You might be tempted to think that private employees get "x" times more than government employees and they should be better. But that is not how it works in India. If you are a private employee there is a possibility of getting fired. If you…

I didn't say salaries were directly comparable. Check back with me in 10 years, we'll see which salaries rose faster than others.

Re: Why America Needs India’s Rockets

#140
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is because any mature rocket technology can trivially be adjusted to be a nuclear weapons delivery platform. By assisting India you're paying for their ICBM development. Maybe the line shouldn't be drawn at rockets, but unless you think we should have free & open markets for nuclear weapons I daresay you think the line should be drawn somewhere.

>> This is because any mature rocket technology can trivially be adjusted to be a nuclear weapons delivery platform. There is also the issue of maintaining the capability domestically. If someone else is too cheap it would destroy the local capability. Imagine the US losing the ability to launch it's own satellites - like it lost the ability to launch people. That said, there needs to be a way to make domestic launch…

> Imagine the US losing the ability to launch it's own satellites - like it lost the ability to launch people.

We came pretty close to that brink after not bothering to invest in our own engine development. Makes the quarterly reports look great though.

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