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Why America Needs India’s Rockets

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Re: Why America Needs India’s Rockets

#21

Post by drzaiusapelord »

harichinnan wrote: post #12
drzaiusapelord wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You also have to consider that Indian salaries aren't remotely close to US salaries and other local factors. Software engineers make 12x what they make in India. The US can't just have a $73m mission considering the standard of living for engineers and managers here. ISRO is notoriously cheap even by Indian standards. Its probably not realistic to expect this type of pricing the same way the US can't mass produce thi…

That's a long time ago. Now there are many companies and many jobs that pay a 100K USD in India. Also Indian software engineers get promoted really fast into management with vastly higher salaries.

ISRO salaries straight from glassdoor:

Scientist/Engineer ₹802,100 Scientist/Engineer ₹798,473

So, 800k rupee is about $12,000 USD. NASA's avg engineer salary is 10x that.

edit: NASA employees also get generous government benefits like pensions and such. Federal employee benefits are the envy of the nation. Not sure why you people are arguing against basic facts here. Salaries, cost of living, etc are a fraction in India compared to the states. Thus you can't compare project costs.

Re: Why America Needs India’s Rockets

#22

Post by rajathagasthya »

avar wrote: post #3
pm90 wrote: post #2

On the one hand, its rather interesting to see the US, champion of free and open markets, enforce a policy so against that very principle. If I'm not mistaken, not only is US policy meant to assist the private space industry in the US, but to also avoid indirectly assisting the Indian missile/ballistic missile program. Although in India's defense the agency that develops/manages/deploys satellites (ISRO) is separate…

This is because any mature rocket technology can trivially be adjusted to be a nuclear weapons delivery platform. By assisting India you're paying for their ICBM development. Maybe the line shouldn't be drawn at rockets, but unless you think we should have free & open markets for nuclear weapons I daresay you think the line should be drawn somewhere.

> By assisting India you're paying for their ICBM development

India is now part of MCTR (Missile Control Technology Regime) that limits ICBM development. So that's no longer a valid concern. Also, India has done well without the assistance of the US in space technology and will continue to do so. So if the US doesn't want to assist in technology, it's not going to be a show stopper for India. It will continue to eat at the small satellite launch business.

Re: Why America Needs India’s Rockets

#23

Post by andromeduck »

whack wrote: post #8
andromeduck wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if the two agencies are funded and operated separately, their talent pool surely is not and I can't imagine their wouldn't be significant technology transfer because of it so the end result would be the same.

The article mentions that we already buy rockets from China/Russia. It's hard to imagine India as a bigger security threat than either of those countries.

Well China and Russia already signed the agreement and they both already have very mature missle technology which I don't honk can be said for India at the moment.

Also I'm not sure how much it matters in this case but India only joined the Missile Technology Control Regime a few months ago whereas Russia signed it a long time ago and China has agreed to abide by the original guidelines and applied for full membership in 2004.

Re: Why America Needs India’s Rockets

#24

Post by dharmach »

phkahler wrote: post #15
avar wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is because any mature rocket technology can trivially be adjusted to be a nuclear weapons delivery platform. By assisting India you're paying for their ICBM development. Maybe the line shouldn't be drawn at rockets, but unless you think we should have free & open markets for nuclear weapons I daresay you think the line should be drawn somewhere.

>> This is because any mature rocket technology can trivially be adjusted to be a nuclear weapons delivery platform. There is also the issue of maintaining the capability domestically. If someone else is too cheap it would destroy the local capability. Imagine the US losing the ability to launch it's own satellites - like it lost the ability to launch people. That said, there needs to be a way to make domestic launch…

On the other side, Lockheed Martin which already builds C-130J Super Hercules in India, now wants to manufacture F-16 too in India.

Re: Why America Needs India’s Rockets

#25

Post by mmmBacon »

actuator wrote: post #20
rqebmm wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India is less a security threat than a destabilization threat. I'm sure the US is more worried about them firing nukes at Pakistan than California.

I don't know on what you are basing the destabilization threat on. India has a no first usage policy on nuclear weapons [1] and has shown no intent of using the weapons. Also in all the wars in which India was involved, it was never the aggressor. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_and_weapons_of_mass_dest...

The first strike policy is irrelevant in this context. What matters is capability and parity. If a country develops a nuclear capability that they didn't have before, in his case weapon delivery, this is proliferation. This puts pressure on other states to come to parity with that new capability. In this case that pressure would be likely on Pakistan.

Re: Why America Needs India’s Rockets

#27

Post by om42 »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #21
harichinnan wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a long time ago. Now there are many companies and many jobs that pay a 100K USD in India. Also Indian software engineers get promoted really fast into management with vastly higher salaries.

ISRO salaries straight from glassdoor: Scientist/Engineer ₹802,100 Scientist/Engineer ₹798,473 So, 800k rupee is about $12,000 USD. NASA's avg engineer salary is 10x that. edit: NASA employees also get generous government benefits like pensions and such. Federal employee benefits are the envy of the nation. Not sure why you people are arguing against basic facts here. Salaries, cost of living, etc are a fraction in I…

ISRO salaries are extremely low compared to NASA's (or any engineer in the US). Indian government positions do offer more "benefits" but it still does not add up to nearly half of what an average NASA engineer's salary. You also have to take into account that what ISRO puts into space versus NASA is very different (due to budgeting and that the ISRO has become more active recently).

Re: Why America Needs India’s Rockets

#28

Post by andromeduck »

actuator wrote: post #20
rqebmm wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India is less a security threat than a destabilization threat. I'm sure the US is more worried about them firing nukes at Pakistan than California.

I don't know on what you are basing the destabilization threat on. India has a no first usage policy on nuclear weapons [1] and has shown no intent of using the weapons. Also in all the wars in which India was involved, it was never the aggressor. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_and_weapons_of_mass_dest...

Uh what about the Forward Policy that directly lead to the 1962 Sino Indian war?

Re: Why America Needs India’s Rockets

#29

Post by actuator »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #21
harichinnan wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a long time ago. Now there are many companies and many jobs that pay a 100K USD in India. Also Indian software engineers get promoted really fast into management with vastly higher salaries.

ISRO salaries straight from glassdoor: Scientist/Engineer ₹802,100 Scientist/Engineer ₹798,473 So, 800k rupee is about $12,000 USD. NASA's avg engineer salary is 10x that. edit: NASA employees also get generous government benefits like pensions and such. Federal employee benefits are the envy of the nation. Not sure why you people are arguing against basic facts here. Salaries, cost of living, etc are a fraction in I…

Don't go on these numbers alone. There are a lot of other perks that you get when you work for a government organization or PSU in India. For example housing, transport, pension etc is all taken care by the organization.

Re: Why America Needs India’s Rockets

#30

Post by RodericDay »

avar wrote: post #3
pm90 wrote: post #2

On the one hand, its rather interesting to see the US, champion of free and open markets, enforce a policy so against that very principle. If I'm not mistaken, not only is US policy meant to assist the private space industry in the US, but to also avoid indirectly assisting the Indian missile/ballistic missile program. Although in India's defense the agency that develops/manages/deploys satellites (ISRO) is separate…

This is because any mature rocket technology can trivially be adjusted to be a nuclear weapons delivery platform. By assisting India you're paying for their ICBM development. Maybe the line shouldn't be drawn at rockets, but unless you think we should have free & open markets for nuclear weapons I daresay you think the line should be drawn somewhere.

The terms set by the US government all have to do with pricing:

http://spacenews.com/customers-of-indias-pslv-rocket-say-ind...

I think the idea that it's primarily a security concern is very misleading.

Protectionism can always, always be framed as a matter of national security.

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