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Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

nytimes.com

91–100 of 269 posts

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#91
post #2

The reality is that tobacco taxes fund a lot of the government, and there is no replacement for that income source if people stop smoking cigarettes. Thus the tobacco companies are happy to lobby against e-cigarettes to protect their revenue stream and the government is happy to support them because it's their revenue stream too. It's unfortunate, because it's largely a tax on the poor. The rich can afford prescripti…

As far as I know the cost to the health system succeeds the tax income by far. At least in Germany.

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#92
post #4
post #2

The reality is that tobacco taxes fund a lot of the government, and there is no replacement for that income source if people stop smoking cigarettes. Thus the tobacco companies are happy to lobby against e-cigarettes to protect their revenue stream and the government is happy to support them because it's their revenue stream too. It's unfortunate, because it's largely a tax on the poor. The rich can afford prescripti…

I realize this often isn't the case, but the pursuit of taxing specific behaviors is supposed to only be used to fund things caused by that behavior: that way if some people are costing the government money, they pay the price rather than all of society, making everyone's incentives align. If those people stop doing the thing, then the cost is gone and the government should not care that they aren't collecting the mo…

"taxing specific behaviors is supposed to only be used to fund things caused by that behavior"

That might be what people say but that's a horrible idea from a governmental perspective. There's nothing that says that the amount of money that can possibly extracted by taxing a thing is the right amount for combating it. If something is taxed enough to double or triple it's official price then smuggling will start to develop. And even if you were to raise taxes enough to instantly stop all new smoking you'd still have to care for people whose lungs have been damaged by cancer somehow.

And in general introducing coupling between taxes and expenditures needlessly complicates the budgetary process. It's a recipe for government sclerosis if you take it too far with people thinking that, e.g., they can't invest in public transit because then road taxes would go down, but the roads are needed for emergency vehicles regardless of commuting and road maintenance isn't anything like linear with use.

Tax things because you want people to do them less and because that lets you lower taxes on things you don't want to discourage.

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#93
post #39

For anyone looking to quit smoking I can't recommend e-cigarettes enough. As a very passionate former smoker I got off the habit pretty much accidentally and without even trying in a timeframe of about half a year. And it actually started with the intend to find a cheaper alternative to expensive cigarettes without any desire to quit. The key is to steadily reduce the amount of nicotine in the liquid you're using. On…

Yep. 20 years of smoking, failing at every cessation method that I've heard of, was finally beaten with 3 months of e-cig tapering for me too. I was actually content just keep using it, but my machine broke on an out of town trip, and I realized after a few days I didn't miss it like I did when I'd try to quit smoking. These anti-vape ads infuriate me. I don't even use one anymore, haven't for over a year, and every…

Do we have any statistics on percentage of vape users quitting analog smoking vs. recreational/teen experimental usage? If there are strong recreational vape trends in youth I can see why anti-vape ads might be a thing.

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#94
post #84
post #74

I quit smoking 7 years ago and helped a dozen people to quit as well. NONE of the people I know who used e-cigarettes were able to quit for good. Here's my recipe: 1. Quitting sounds hard but it isn't. The majority of people who try to quit, actually succeed. 2. Don't use ANYTHING as a substitute (no chewing gum, no patches or e-cigs). Substitutes usually can never replace the original and will just keep you "hooked"…

And the one person I know who had tried various ways to quit over the years got a vape set, tapered down gradually to no cigarettes over about 6 weeks (I think on day 1 she only had half a pack instead of her usual ≥ 1 pack habit), and hasn't had an actual cigarette in over 2 years. Different people seem to respond better to different approaches.

I know the initial success is great. The question is, will she be able to stay off cigarettes for good (and ecigs, too). Most ecig-users I know went back to cigarettes without hesitation when they forgot to bring extra liquid to the party and they got drunk. Even after years of abstinence from real cigarettes.

Everything anyone here will say is anecdotal of course.

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#95
"Americans tend to value abstinence above all else, an all-or-nothing approach that British advocates see as rooted in the United States’ Puritan culture, said Deborah Arnott, the chief executive of Action on Smoking and Health."

This is true.

You can see the same thing during the (alcohol) prohibition era: because ethyl alcohol is necessary for other uses, it was mandated to be "denatured" by adding chemicals that made it less appealing to drink. When they found people still drinking it (or managing to separate the alcohol from the denaturants), they increased the toxicity of the chemicals until they were actually poisoning people.

In this case, the primary goal is to prevent new smokers. Since many of the e-cigarette flavors are pleasant, they regard it as attractive to children. Now, getting someone who doesn't already smoke to vape is bad, but I haven't seen any significant evidence that vaping leads them to smoking, so there's that.

On the other hand, if you are already smoking, your soul is lost and, to a first approximation, it would be better if you were to die as soon as possible---outside of pharmaceutical companies, there is no serious interest in cessation. Inside those companies, making nicotine gum and patches is big business, and I know people who have been chewing the gum frequently for nearly a decade.

There is a certain amount of the same feeling in those who have quit smoking. To paraphrase an old joke, how do you know someone quit smoking? Don't worry, they'll tell you. If you can quit cold-turkey, good; if you can't, you are weak willed and a lesser human.

In any case, the bottom line is, like in all Puritan situations, that results matter less than perceptions.

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#97
As long as people keep playing the sub-ohm game, thus keeping the majority of heat dissipation in the battery (I've seen 5 milli-Ohm coils, imagine where the heat's going when an 18650 has a typical resistance of 100 milli-ohms fresh) then yes, these things will be a menace. Just the other day a sub-ohmer at the mental health facility I was re-wiring had his battery explode on him. POPFIZZLE! It was just sitting on the concrete in the shade, he wasn't even using it and it hadn't been used for at least 10 minutes.

Ohm's law really needs to get more exposure in the classroom.

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#98
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a couple of big things against them right now. A) they are unproven. Many people believe that something that isn't proven safe or unsafe is not better than something unsafe that has been heavily scrutinized and studied. What if there's a much worse effect that we dont' know about yet? B) They are unstandardized. Each producer can be putting who-knows-what in the oils. C) It's still smoke. When they first came…

It isn't smoke, and it isn't burnt plant matter. In theory the vapour might have as strong a smell as cigarette smoke; in practice even the most strong smelling vapours are mostly comparable to the smell of personal fragrances, and we are ways off from banning those as well.

In practice, there's often no useful difference between a thin cloud of vile-smelling smoke and a thick cloud of fruity-smelling vape: many people would prefer to avoid both. (Also, the vape cloud leaves much more residue than smoke did, just much less foul). Best policy seems to be to use the things only where actual smoking is allowed to try to avoid annoying bystanders.

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#99

For anyone looking to quit smoking I can't recommend e-cigarettes enough. As a very passionate former smoker I got off the habit pretty much accidentally and without even trying in a timeframe of about half a year. And it actually started with the intend to find a cheaper alternative to expensive cigarettes without any desire to quit. The key is to steadily reduce the amount of nicotine in the liquid you're using. On…

I bought one for my mother because her health seemed lowering. She didn't like it and didn't want to spend time searching for the right device and/or liquid. She had an infarctus (not myocard it seems though) last month, obviously cardio told her no more cigarettes. She was worried about nicotine addiction, I mentioned e-cig, I got angry eyes, borderline saying it was worth than cigs. I understand their concerns abou…

Some doctors are more open minded than others. I use an ecig to deal a smoking relapse after being quit for 7 years (sadly, the addiction never really leaves you), and from my unscientific and informal poll of pulmonologists, thoracic surgeons, and others in the medical field, they largely think of ecigs are harmless (especially when compared to cigarettes).

Of course, they won't recommend them to patients because the science has yet to fully establish their safety, but what science HAS come in is promising and the anecdotal evidence from countless users is also promising. Even so, doctors want to promote quitting altogether, not crutches or replacements, as it simplies treatment plans and eliminates variables. Plus, many of them have never been smokers, so they just don't understand what it's like to be a smoker, depending upon both nicotine and the comforting ritual of smoking in a society flush with stress.

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#100
post #94
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the one person I know who had tried various ways to quit over the years got a vape set, tapered down gradually to no cigarettes over about 6 weeks (I think on day 1 she only had half a pack instead of her usual ≥ 1 pack habit), and hasn't had an actual cigarette in over 2 years. Different people seem to respond better to different approaches.

I know the initial success is great. The question is, will she be able to stay off cigarettes for good (and ecigs, too). Most ecig-users I know went back to cigarettes without hesitation when they forgot to bring extra liquid to the party and they got drunk. Even after years of abstinence from real cigarettes. Everything anyone here will say is anecdotal of course.

I think (as someone who hasn't touched a cigarette in two years, and hasn't touched an ecig since February) that the most important part is that you have to taper down the nicotine content of the ecigs, otherwise you're just replacing one nicotine delivery system with another and not making any progress. The leap between being nicotine and tobacco free and a cigarette is far greater (mentally and physically) than between a nicotine supplement (ecigs) and a cigarette.
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