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Why America Needs India’s Rockets

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Re: Why America Needs India’s Rockets

#11

Post by rqebmm »

whack wrote: post #8
andromeduck wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if the two agencies are funded and operated separately, their talent pool surely is not and I can't imagine their wouldn't be significant technology transfer because of it so the end result would be the same.

The article mentions that we already buy rockets from China/Russia. It's hard to imagine India as a bigger security threat than either of those countries.

India is less a security threat than a destabilization threat. I'm sure the US is more worried about them firing nukes at Pakistan than California.

Re: Why America Needs India’s Rockets

#12

Post by harichinnan »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #6
aq3cn wrote: post #5

As much I know ISRO has less failure rate and they get the job with little budget in comparison to NASA or any other space agencies. This alone is the reason, one might be tempted to use Indian technology. > India's Mars mission, with a budget of $73 million, is far cheaper than comparable missions including NASA's $671 million Maven satellite that is expected to set off for Mars later in November. Source: http://www…

You also have to consider that Indian salaries aren't remotely close to US salaries and other local factors. Software engineers make 12x what they make in India. The US can't just have a $73m mission considering the standard of living for engineers and managers here. ISRO is notoriously cheap even by Indian standards. Its probably not realistic to expect this type of pricing the same way the US can't mass produce thi…

That's a long time ago. Now there are many companies and many jobs that pay a 100K USD in India. Also Indian software engineers get promoted really fast into management with vastly higher salaries.

Re: Why America Needs India’s Rockets

#13

Post by akshayB »

One of the things I always struggle to understand is whenever ISRO get mentioned people jump on US vs India salaries. We live in a world where globalization has changed everything. See what happened to Solar industry when China started dumping cheap solar panels across the global market. Auto manufacturing, software business and many other sectors it is a very common practice. If you have a target of launching something in orbit why not save the money and use technology used by ISRO save some money and use it for another project.

Re: Why America Needs India’s Rockets

#14

Post by deepnotderp »

rdtsc wrote: post #9

> Since 2005, U.S. satellite manufacturers have been prohibited from hiring India's space agency to launch their equipment. So interestingly why not India then? > Indian Space Research Organization has consistently punched above its modest weight class, racking up a series of cheap and practical achievements. Aren't we using Russian RD-180 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RD-180 engines which also seemed to punch above…

IIRC, ULA is the one that uses the RD-180s.

Re: Why America Needs India’s Rockets

#15

Post by phkahler »

avar wrote: post #3
pm90 wrote: post #2

On the one hand, its rather interesting to see the US, champion of free and open markets, enforce a policy so against that very principle. If I'm not mistaken, not only is US policy meant to assist the private space industry in the US, but to also avoid indirectly assisting the Indian missile/ballistic missile program. Although in India's defense the agency that develops/manages/deploys satellites (ISRO) is separate…

This is because any mature rocket technology can trivially be adjusted to be a nuclear weapons delivery platform. By assisting India you're paying for their ICBM development. Maybe the line shouldn't be drawn at rockets, but unless you think we should have free & open markets for nuclear weapons I daresay you think the line should be drawn somewhere.

>> This is because any mature rocket technology can trivially be adjusted to be a nuclear weapons delivery platform.

There is also the issue of maintaining the capability domestically. If someone else is too cheap it would destroy the local capability. Imagine the US losing the ability to launch it's own satellites - like it lost the ability to launch people.

That said, there needs to be a way to make domestic launches competitive, so helping SpaceX or others while blocking foreign competition seem like a good idea all around. The goal should be to maintain domestic capability while hindering foreign nukes - not to maintain some company monopoly.

Re: Why America Needs India’s Rockets

#16

Post by gnipgnip »

Indian PSU research centers are well-known for being incompetent (including DRDO, CSIR, HAL...) [1]; in this ISRO is something of an oasis (or so I've heard). These orgs are generally neither nimble, nor particularly interested in acquiring talent, unlike their American competitors (or even NASA). Hiring is often one large nationwide JEE-like exam held once a year to recruit new engineers. Not surprisingly few Engineers that end up working there are from top colleges.

Given all this, it's not clear how long ISRO will be able to hold on to its first mover advantage, with regards to cheap launches. While INR being undervalued may be one advantage, it may not prove to be enough to compensate for bad logistics and attrition. Admittedly though, the latter are not as big problems for ISRO, as they are for manufacturing companies.

If there are folks from ISRO here on HN, I'd love to know about their management/coding practices and the like. In any case, the whole "defense" line is a non-sequitur

- Everyone knows that the Indian bureaucracy leaks like a sewer.

- DRDO is hardly an organization that needs fearing; apart from the above anecdotal data, most of the components/tech used by the organization are imported. A Homi Bhabha is not apparent in the current state apparatus.

- The state has hardly had any real geopolitical goals (after Nehru-Indira Gandhi).

[1] Haldane called CSIR, "Center for the suppression of independent research".

Re: Why America Needs India’s Rockets

#17

Post by madmax108 »

Multiple friends who moved to the USA for their higher education (MS/PhD) in fields such as Aerospace Engg complain about the very tight regulations in the field. For many people, even being top of the class means coming back home, because companies like Boeing/ SpaceX etc have very tight US citizens only rules imposed on them. This is almost completely opposite to the Comp Sci. graduates who assimilate almost immediately into the workforce. In a way, this has helped India develop it's own space program because many graduates from top universities do come back home and join ISRO (albeit I'm sure many others don't for various reasons).

Why is there so much country-based regulation in these fields? Is it because the traditional patriotism associated with the field (US vs Russia in the 60's was legendary)? or is it simply resistance to change?

Re: Why America Needs India’s Rockets

#18

Post by aq3cn »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #6
aq3cn wrote: post #5

As much I know ISRO has less failure rate and they get the job with little budget in comparison to NASA or any other space agencies. This alone is the reason, one might be tempted to use Indian technology. > India's Mars mission, with a budget of $73 million, is far cheaper than comparable missions including NASA's $671 million Maven satellite that is expected to set off for Mars later in November. Source: http://www…

You also have to consider that Indian salaries aren't remotely close to US salaries and other local factors. Software engineers make 12x what they make in India. The US can't just have a $73m mission considering the standard of living for engineers and managers here. ISRO is notoriously cheap even by Indian standards. Its probably not realistic to expect this type of pricing the same way the US can't mass produce thi…

> China

I don't how does China come into picture. I don't expect China to help India in space programs.

Second, technological investment in space program is not mass production.

Re: Why America Needs India’s Rockets

#19

Post by seren »

madmax108 wrote: post #17

Multiple friends who moved to the USA for their higher education (MS/PhD) in fields such as Aerospace Engg complain about the very tight regulations in the field. For many people, even being top of the class means coming back home, because companies like Boeing/ SpaceX etc have very tight US citizens only rules imposed on them. This is almost completely opposite to the Comp Sci. graduates who assimilate almost immedi…

A rocket is an intercontinental ballistic missile with a different flight plan. So every nuclear power want to stay ahead in the game.

Re: Why America Needs India’s Rockets

#20

Post by actuator »

rqebmm wrote: post #11
whack wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article mentions that we already buy rockets from China/Russia. It's hard to imagine India as a bigger security threat than either of those countries.

India is less a security threat than a destabilization threat. I'm sure the US is more worried about them firing nukes at Pakistan than California.

I don't know on what you are basing the destabilization threat on. India has a no first usage policy on nuclear weapons [1] and has shown no intent of using the weapons. Also in all the wars in which India was involved, it was never the aggressor.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_and_weapons_of_mass_dest...

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