British Government loses Article 50 court fight • Hacker News Board

Re: British Government loses Article 50 court fight

#241

Post by leonk » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 12:49 PM UTC

ldjb wrote: post #223

leonk wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The government has already set out how they want Brexit to work" Have they? I'd really like to see this.

Yes, the government has said that Brexit means Brexit, meaning that the UK will exit the EU. There will be controls on immigration, but the UK will seek to maintain positive relationships with other European countries (and the rest of the world) and co-operate in matters such as security. Okay, they haven't quite spelt it out in the level of detail some would have liked, but they've provided more detail than other pa…

I'd say this is more of a strategy than a plan. It's all pretty vague.

It was the tories who called the referendum, and the tories who are currently dealing with Brexit. It's not Labour's job to come up with a plan (which would not get used anyway). All Labour have been trying to do is get details of the Tory (currently non-existent) plan, in order to be able to start a discussion on it. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-170-que...

Re: British Government loses Article 50 court fight

#242

Post by tobltobs » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 12:49 PM UTC

DominikR wrote: post #228

tobltobs wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of "legalese bs" happens all the time in Switzerland and you won't find a lot of people believing Switzerland is on a brink of a violent government overthrow. Referendums are usually a mandate to the parliament to implement something.If the referendum idea turns out to be impossible (like eating and having your cake) then the parliament will dismiss or water down this mandate.

There is nothing impossible about leaving the EU. It's not like the Referendum demanded the UK to colonise Pluto. And its the government itself that initiated this on its terms so it should follow through on it. Not a fringe party but the ruling government parties.

> There is nothing impossible about leaving the EU.

I never did say this. I did say keeping the promises of the Leave campaigners is impossible.

> the government itself that initiated this on its terms.

The terms were that this referendum is not binding.

Re: British Government loses Article 50 court fight

#243

Post by youngtaff » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 12:53 PM UTC

ldjb wrote: post #223

leonk wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The government has already set out how they want Brexit to work" Have they? I'd really like to see this.

Yes, the government has said that Brexit means Brexit, meaning that the UK will exit the EU. There will be controls on immigration, but the UK will seek to maintain positive relationships with other European countries (and the rest of the world) and co-operate in matters such as security. Okay, they haven't quite spelt it out in the level of detail some would have liked, but they've provided more detail than other pa…

But Brexit has never been defined (in terms of a government position on what it actually means in trade terms for example) , so saying Brexit means Brexit is pretty much nonsense!

Re: British Government loses Article 50 court fight

#244

Post by pjc50 » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 1:10 PM UTC

DominikR wrote: post #197

pjc50 wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This referendum was not set up as binding or self-executing. If you can find where in the rules the government committed to any particular course of action, you're welcome to quote them.

Yeah this is the kind of legalese bs that leads to violent overthrows of governments. If you believe that this will stop Brexit you are living in phantasy land.

The idea that there will be violence is the real fantasy here, and a very unpleasant fantasy at that. Other than maybe a few more murdered Poles and a fistfight between UKIP MEPs.

The Leave supporters are mostly over 50, have no coherent organization, and no history of street protests. All they're going to do is write angry comments on Daily Mail articles and vote in elections. They're not going to get hold of semtex and Armalites and start an insurgency.

Re: British Government loses Article 50 court fight

#245

Post by ldjb » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 1:10 PM UTC

throwaway-hn123 wrote: post #231

ldjb wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People voted in general elections for many different reasons. People voting for a pro-EU party didn't necessarily support the EU. And all those elections took place under a flawed first-past-the-post system.

I mean, if you want to keep moving the goalposts as your arguments are rebutted, that's fine. It just makes you not appear to be acting in good faith.

I don't see how I'm moving the goalposts. All I'm saying is that the EU referendum result must be respected.

General election results must also be respected, but they revolve around a number of issues, so are not a good indicator of voters' opinion of membership of the EU.

Besides, the Conservatives were elected into government with a manifesto promising an in-out referendum. The government has delivered on that promise and is carrying out the will of the people, as decided in that referendum.

Re: British Government loses Article 50 court fight

#246

Post by elcct » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 1:11 PM UTC

slmyers wrote: post #55

elcct wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But whatever they call it, it is majority indeed and that's the democracy - you either accept that majority wins or well... don't know

I'm not sure if you can describe modern democracies as a will of the majority -- marijuana legalization, civil rights movements, anti war sentiments as examples.

But that will is not reflected in voting...

Re: British Government loses Article 50 court fight

#247

Post by arethuza » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 1:21 PM UTC

midgetjones wrote: post #221

lucb1e wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never seen anyone call this a clear majority, all the news I've read, seen and heard called it close. Anyone who calls this a clear victory or clear majority is kidding themselves.

David Davis said "The mandate for Britain to leave the European Union is clear, overwhelming, and unarguable."

And Farage said, before the poll "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36306681

How right he was, although perhaps not quite in the way he meant.

Re: British Government loses Article 50 court fight

#248

Post by pjc50 » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 1:22 PM UTC

andysinclair wrote: post #42

throwawayReply wrote: post #6

Despite the ruling being kept under-wraps until 10:00, looking at GBP/USD it started rising at 09:20 suggesting it leaked at that time.

Services PMI was released at 9:30 which caused a small move up, then around 10 when the A50 ruling was announced there was extreme volatility. I can't see any indication of a leak. Overall I can't see Parliament voting to remain, the ruling has only really delayed he process. It may result in a "softer" Brexit, maybe this is why the GBP has risen?

I can; there are just enough Tory potential rebels to make it happen, led by Ken Clarke. I think that a big part of the reason article 50 hasn't been triggered already is that a lot of people know deep down that it's going to be a disaster in the long term and their names will live in infamy. Just as we invoke the name of Vidkun Quisling to this day. But at the same time they know that not doing so will be unpopular in the short term. They're in a comparable position to #NeverTrump republicans.

Re: British Government loses Article 50 court fight

#249

Post by emp_zealoth » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 1:27 PM UTC

DocTomoe wrote: post #128

sasvari wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in the face of an EU that's already committed to screwing the UK Would you care to elaborate?

Well, for one, the EU has (understandably) choosen very anti-Brexit negotiators, hinting at hard and unfruitful negotiations. I guess the UK would have loved if the EU sent Faragne...

They should send Van Rompoy and demand that Farange negotiates for UK rotfl :D

Re: British Government loses Article 50 court fight

#250

Post by ldjb » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 1:35 PM UTC

throwaway-hn123 wrote: post #225

ldjb wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with what you said about it being okay to attempt to stop Brexit, even after we voted against membership of the EU and never agreed to be part of it in the first place.

Bizarre. We did agree to be in the EU. In any case, I trust you'll never vote again or protest against any voting outcomes that you disagree with as you seem to think that once a vote has been held, the outcome can never be disagreed with.

I'm not sure how we agreed to be in the EU when we voted to leave on 23rd June.

I don't expect everyone to be happy about the outcome of votes, but I do expect outcomes to be respected.

I'm not opposed to decisions being overturned, but I don't think it's right to re-run a vote right after it has been carried out. We haven't even left the EU yet. At some point after we've left the EU, perhaps there will be grounds to take another look at membership of the EU. But not straight away.

I want as many people as possible to participate in elections and referendums (even if I disagree with them), because I want everyone's voice to be heard. That's what it means to live in a democracy. And so I certainly intend to continue voting.