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British Government loses Article 50 court fight

bbc.co.uk

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Re: British Government loses Article 50 court fight

#211

Post by Quarrelsome »

elcct wrote: post #45
midgetjones wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really wish they'd stop calling it a "clear majority". I'm not sure when 52-48 was ever such.

But whatever they call it, it is majority indeed and that's the democracy - you either accept that majority wins or well... don't know

I'm sorry to be rude but this is a very basic interpretation of democracy. It has some serious limitations:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majority_rule#Limitations

typically we practice more complex implementations of democracy and as a rule we use majority rule for things like social questions as opposed to key strategic and economic ones.

Re: British Government loses Article 50 court fight

#212

Post by ldjb »

ricw wrote: post #177
ldjb wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering the British people never voted to join the EU in its current form, I'm not sure why membership of the EU should be seen as the default option. If we weren't asked whether we wanted to join a post-Lisbon Treaty EU, and once we were in it, we actively said we don't want it, why should we remain in it?

This is factually incorrect. As a parliamentary democracy we voted for all the governments that agreed to all such treaties and had the right to veto or reject any of them (which we did, the Schengen or euro treaties being examples thereof).

People voted in general elections for many different reasons. People voting for a pro-EU party didn't necessarily support the EU. And all those elections took place under a flawed first-past-the-post system.

Re: British Government loses Article 50 court fight

#213

Post by SomeStupidPoint »

nothrabannosir wrote: post #145
avar wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The referendum to enter the EU had a 64% turnout with 67.23% voting yes & 32.77% voting no. So that's around 43% that voted to enter[1]. Regardless, I think this entire line of reasoning makes no sense. You could dismiss pretty much any election by multiplying the "yes" votes with voter turnout to get less than 50%. That's just how democracies work, if you don't care enough to vote you don't get a say, that doesn't m…

That's just how democracies work Not really, no. Especially if it's not clear there's an option to say "idk". Say you care very much but don't know what's best? Does your vote not matter, now? If so, doesn't that make the election wrong? But how do you express that? There may be an answer to this deep inside some legislature chapter XVI section 16 paragraph b, but if people don't know, does that matter? Anyway, not s…

> Say you care very much but don't know what's best? Does your vote not matter, now?

Yes, your vote doesn't matter in that case, because you have no information to convey to the system: you have no preference. Only votes which are conveying a preference about how the situation should be handled are useful. There's no reason to distinguish between "I care, but don't have anything to say about the topic" and "I don't care" if you're not even willing to vote based on which candidate talks about the issues you care about, at least as far as elections go.

Write a letter or something.

Ed: In a slightly less snarky sense, your vote really doesn't matter at that point. The point you should participate in the process, if you feel candidates aren't addressing your issues, is way before that. It just requires actual amounts of time and effort to shift platforms, though, and participation beyond checking a box every year/few years.

Re: British Government loses Article 50 court fight

#214

Post by dasboth »

UK-AL wrote: post #166
dasboth wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source? Edit: The study linked above [0] showed the following for voter regret (specifically "do you have doubts about the way you voted?"): Remain Yes / No / Don't Know 98% / 1% / 1% Leave Yes / No / Don't Know 90% / 6% / 4% [0]: http://www.britishelectionstudy.com/bes-resources/brexit-bri...

I for one. I voted remain, but having actually gone partly down the brexit path, would be comfortable with it now. The treatment of leavers by remainers has been frankly disgusting. Accusing them of being racists, stupid, and various other things. Brexit has made them lose their minds. They simply refuse to believe their are people who would vote brexit for reasons other racism. I know many people who voted for brexi…

> having actually gone partly down the brexit path

What do you mean exactly?

> The treatment of leavers by remainers has been frankly disgusting

Completely agree. The whole thing of people taking sides, rather than discussing a political issue, has been absurd and awful.

> voted for brexit on informed reasons

Unfortunately this was badly communicated, the media's fault no doubt. It was genuinely quite difficult to find a reasoned, balanced view (especially on the leave side I have to say).

Re: British Government loses Article 50 court fight

#215

Post by Desustorm »

philliphaydon wrote: post #101
hexiedexie wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

6% of leave voters regret their choice according to an academic study published about a month ago, enough to swing the vote the other way.... And as the effects of a potential Brexit continue to bite, this percentage will only increase http://www.britishelectionstudy.com/bes-resources/brexit-bri...

I'm surprised more people don't want to vote leave, it's like they want the UK economy to continue to die by remaining just so they can country hop.

The UK economy was/is doing fine? Not sure you read up on all the facts.

Re: British Government loses Article 50 court fight

#216

Post by christoph »

sharrs wrote: post #141
SticksAndBreaks wrote: post #37

Good old - we dont like the outcome, lets revote?

It's pretty clear that if they revoted the result of the referendum would be anti-Brexit so UK is in the absurd situation where they have to proceed with a major political/economic decision that does not reflect anymore the will of UK's citizens.

And if the vote outcome _does_ change, what do we do afterwards - make it best of three and have another one to finally settle it as the pro Brexit voters revolt about their decision being overturned?

Re: British Government loses Article 50 court fight

#217

Post by selimthegrim »

bb101 wrote: post #123

Many people voted pro-Brexit in the referendum due to the increasing disparity and alienation between the ruling/political class and the rest of the country. By deferring the decision to a parliamentary majority, the High court has ensured that Brexit will not happen. That's a sound result for the politicians and chiefs of industry based in London, but what will it mean for the wider UK? Both the courts and parliamen…

That eventuality is perfectly legal and the reason the founders designed the Electoral College in the first place, as a last ditch emergency brake. Not that I would want that to happen but it is well known that only democratic convention binds the electors.

Re: British Government loses Article 50 court fight

#218

Post by Veen »

zigzigzag wrote: post #200
Nursie wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always wonder with people who say this - if the vote had gone the other way but Parliament decided to leave the EU anyway, would you still be saying the vote was only advisory so it's fine?

Rhetorical question, isn't it. Of course they wouldn't. Support for the EU is deeply rooted in a belief that people can't/shouldn't rule themselves: they need to delegate 'complex matters' to elite experts who, of course, only have the people's best interests at heart. The sudden belief that the referendum was only a fancy opinion poll entirely fits with this narrative.

> deeply rooted in a belief that people can't/shouldn't rule themselves

Of course I believe that. Everyone who isn't a rabid libertarian or anarchist believes that, whichever side of political spectrum they come from. I imagine you believe it too to some degree. In representative democracies we don't rule ourselves, we choose the people who will rule us, which isn't the same thing at all.

There's a lot of valid arguments to be had around the process of choosing, the institutions, and what power those chosen should have, but no serious person believes that the best solution for a species that lives in societies is for every member to rule themselves in every particular.

Re: British Government loses Article 50 court fight

#219

Post by radarsat1 »

KaiserPro wrote: post #134
alphadevx wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This has increased since the vote as the lies of the remain campaign proved not to be true. Just curious as an outsider, what lies are those?

The main rallying cry was: o there are no down sides to leaving o Leaving would give us 350 million pounds extra a week to improve healthcare o We would have a strong currency o The world would fall over it's self to give "free trade deals" to the UK o UK tourists would be able to go to the EU without a visa o No businesses would leave the UK to avoid trade tarrifs/customs hops o The UK wouldn't loose service "passpo…

There hasn't been enough time yet (and brexit hasn't even actually happened yet) to prove or reject a single one of those points.

Re: British Government loses Article 50 court fight

#220

Post by vixen99 »

mavhc wrote: post #93
koolba wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really wish they'd stop calling it a "clear majority". I'm not sure when 52-48 was ever such. It's a majority though. If they wanted to have a higher threshold for the vote (say 60%) they should have done as much when writing the referendum.

Only 27% of UK people voted to leave, out of all of them.

The 17 million votes for Leave was the largest vote ever cast in Britain for anything at all in the entire history of the UK. Blair swept to power in 1997 with 13 million votes. The Conservatives got fourteen million in 1992. With 16 million voting for Remain, putting it to the courts was a recipe for confrontation. Nothing has ignited the British people as much as this issue. Big trouble ahead.
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