British Government loses Article 50 court fight • Hacker News Board

Re: British Government loses Article 50 court fight

#61

Post by koolba » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 11:19 AM UTC

midgetjones wrote: post #38

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MP's are in a hard place because of this. The majority of them are pro-remain, having concluded that brexit is damaging and dangerous and cannot result in a better deal. ... but they will be whipped into line by government (Tory) and party leadership (Labour) insisting that they follow the settled will of the clear majority of the people ... but the will of the people is neither settled nor a clear majority.

I really wish they'd stop calling it a "clear majority". I'm not sure when 52-48 was ever such.

> I really wish they'd stop calling it a "clear majority". I'm not sure when 52-48 was ever such.

It's a majority though. If they wanted to have a higher threshold for the vote (say 60%) they should have done as much when writing the referendum.

Re: British Government loses Article 50 court fight

#62

Post by onion2k » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 11:20 AM UTC

Khol wrote: post #46

cmdkeen wrote: post #20

Mrs May has a 14 point lead in the polls and justification to call an election were Parliament to block Article 50. Given the current state of the opposition, their leader, and the fact that many Labour seats voted Leave it is a pretty safe bet that the Conservatives could end up with a 100+ majority. The key thing comes down to what "block Article 50" means. If the Government decide to not give ground during the Par…

The issue here is that Theresa May cannot call a general election. The Fixed-term Parliament Act means that the only ways to call an early general election are if parliament passes a motion of no confidence in her majesty's government or a two thirds majority of MPs passes a motion to bring an early general election. (A third alternative would be to repeal the act.)

Even if May could get past the Fixed-term Parliament Act, a general election could turn in to a rerun of the EU referendum if the Labour party were to campaign on the grounds of not wanting to invoke Article 50, so the Tories would seen as the Leave party and Labour as the Remain party. Given the events of the past few months, I doubt that the Tories would risk that.

Re: British Government loses Article 50 court fight

#63

Post by jeremysmyth » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 11:20 AM UTC

michaelt wrote: post #31

nicolapede wrote: post #15

I think it was quite arrogant from Theresa May to decide not to involve the Parliament in the first place. People did not give a blanket mandate to her for implementing whatever she thinks Brexit means.

The article says parliament will get a vote on whether to invoke Article 50. As I understand things, there was a vote on leaving the EU, and the UK voted to leave. And as I understand things, there's only one way to leave the EU, and that's by invoking Article 50. Seems to me that means there was a referendum on whether to invoke Article 50, and people voted to invoke it. Why should MPs get to block the referendum re…

The referendum was an opinion poll, with no legal effect.

The effect comes from what the government does with that poll, and the high court has ruled that the government cannot act without parliament's consent. To be absolutely clear: The referendum had no legal effect beyond being an opinion poll.

Re: British Government loses Article 50 court fight

#64

Post by lucb1e » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 11:20 AM UTC

midgetjones wrote: post #38

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MP's are in a hard place because of this. The majority of them are pro-remain, having concluded that brexit is damaging and dangerous and cannot result in a better deal. ... but they will be whipped into line by government (Tory) and party leadership (Labour) insisting that they follow the settled will of the clear majority of the people ... but the will of the people is neither settled nor a clear majority.

I really wish they'd stop calling it a "clear majority". I'm not sure when 52-48 was ever such.

I've never seen anyone call this a clear majority, all the news I've read, seen and heard called it close. Anyone who calls this a clear victory or clear majority is kidding themselves.

Re: British Government loses Article 50 court fight

#65

Post by mrob » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 11:21 AM UTC

michaelt wrote: post #31

nicolapede wrote: post #15

I think it was quite arrogant from Theresa May to decide not to involve the Parliament in the first place. People did not give a blanket mandate to her for implementing whatever she thinks Brexit means.

The article says parliament will get a vote on whether to invoke Article 50. As I understand things, there was a vote on leaving the EU, and the UK voted to leave. And as I understand things, there's only one way to leave the EU, and that's by invoking Article 50. Seems to me that means there was a referendum on whether to invoke Article 50, and people voted to invoke it. Why should MPs get to block the referendum re…

Article 50 states that "Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements." It's the "constitutional requirements" clause that's the problem. Britain does not have a written constitution, but it has traditions that are considered an unwritten constitution, eg. the government (ie. the ruling party) cannot take away rights of the citizens without the consent of Parliament. How exactly this interacts with the Brexit vote is a difficult question, hence the need for this court case.

Re: British Government loses Article 50 court fight

#66

Post by Tomte » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 11:21 AM UTC

jstanley wrote: post #29

Tomte wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Involving Parliament instead of letting the Government do whatever it wants is democracy.

Letting parliament vote on something after everybody has already had the chance to vote on it is not democracy, it's letting the political elite overrule the decision of the people.

But "everybody" did not vote on whether the Brexit should be hard or soft or whatever.

The advisory referendum told Parliament and Government "we want out".

The idea that all the hundreds or thousands of details that this referendum leads to were also implicitly voted on as "Government alone shall decide" is preposterous.

Re: British Government loses Article 50 court fight

#67

Post by jbb555 » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 11:22 AM UTC

Ultimately a clear majority of the UK population is in favor of leave. This has increased since the vote as the lies of the remain campaign proved not to be true.

Much of the remain support is concentrated in a handful of London consistences meaning that almost all english MPs have a significant majority of leave supporters.

They have to vote for that or they won't be selected in a future election.

In any case. If the government doesn't follow the will of the people, then the 18 million people who votes leave will ensure that we have a new government one way or another.

Re: British Government loses Article 50 court fight

#68

Post by exox » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 11:22 AM UTC

michaelt wrote: post #31

nicolapede wrote: post #15

I think it was quite arrogant from Theresa May to decide not to involve the Parliament in the first place. People did not give a blanket mandate to her for implementing whatever she thinks Brexit means.

The article says parliament will get a vote on whether to invoke Article 50. As I understand things, there was a vote on leaving the EU, and the UK voted to leave. And as I understand things, there's only one way to leave the EU, and that's by invoking Article 50. Seems to me that means there was a referendum on whether to invoke Article 50, and people voted to invoke it. Why should MPs get to block the referendum re…

37.5% of the population voted to "Leave the EU". The definition of what "Leave the EU" actually meant and the way in which the leaving would actually take place was never discussed.

If the EU was just a group of people holding hands, and after deciding to leave you were informed that instead of just letting go, the only way out was to cut off both of your arms, I imagine you might want to re-think your decision?

Re: British Government loses Article 50 court fight

#69

Post by usgroup » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 11:22 AM UTC

ranko wrote: post #32

usgroup wrote: post #11

This was frankly unexpected. I wonder what P(supreme=no|high=yes) ? If anyone knows please say. Will the gov bother appealing? The ruling makes available a sabateurs toolbox and could potentially delay Brexit for some time. My bet is that the government don't appeal and then go onto put serious media pressure on parliament to pull the trigger quickly. Having said that I was definitely betting that the high court woul…

Leaving the EU necessarily entails amending or (more likely) repealing the European Communities Act 1972. It's pretty fundamental to the UK constitution that this can only be done by parliament, which makes the judgment entirely expected in legal terms.

What do you think will happen RE Supreme Court? I'd infer same again from your comment?

Re: British Government loses Article 50 court fight

#70

Post by dasboth » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 11:22 AM UTC

throwaway-hn123 wrote: post #54

elcct wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But whatever they call it, it is majority indeed and that's the democracy - you either accept that majority wins or well... don't know

Or realise that the 52-48 reflects a point in time, that things change and therefore it's perfectly ok to campaign against brexit, and try to stop it. Or do you subscribe to the point of view that we should only have had a single general election and abide by that result for all time?

> the 52-48 reflects a point in time

The number of people who claimed to wish they could change their vote after the result was surprising. How many referendums do we need before people decide they've voted "properly"?