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You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

blog.interviewing.io

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Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#331

Post by throwaway3586 »

Notice that according to the very figures cited by the article and released by Google and Facebook, as well as other uncited figures released by Yahoo, Amazon, and LinkedIn, whites are actually underrepresented with respect to the general population of white Americans, not overrepresented, and minorities collectively are therefore actually overrepresented, not underrepresented. This is primarily due to Asians being so overrepresented with respect to the general population of Asian Americans, by as much as a factor of ten.

Yet amazingly, the charges that tech "lacks diversity," is "too white," or even "overwhelmingly white"[1][2][3] haven't let up even as the hard data refuting them has become available, and may even have intensified. In fact, many of these critics, like the author of the linked article, actually attempt to use the very data that refutes their point to somehow support it--an indication, perhaps, of the "post-fact" era leftists so often complain we're now living in.

Little wonder is it then that Trump's white supporters despise journalists so much, considering how deeply so many journalists seem to despise white Americans.

1) http://money.cnn.com/2014/05/29/technology/google-white-male...

2) https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jun/02/googles-s...

3) https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2015/05/...

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#332

Post by morgante »

MustardTiger wrote: post #305
morgante wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure the psychological research would say the latter. Failure is a lot less scary when your ego isn't tied up in it.

That makes absolutely no sense. By definition, giving up is failure. So the options are "100% chance of failure" vs "less than 100% chance of failure", and you think they are more likely to pick "100% chance of failure" because failure is scary?

Obviously it doesn't make sense rationally (you miss 100% of the shots you don't take and all that), but it's emotionally very powerful. It's much easier to emotionally justify giving up (I'm not really interested in switching jobs/getting in to tech/etc.) than it is to face the prospect of being rejected many times.

Humans are not rational agents.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#333

Post by mdorazio »

thegayngler wrote: post #296

I think it makes more sense to hire people you like who you think can do the job. Then train those individuals to be the employees you want. That is where your diversity will come in. What happened to businesses and people investing in and training other people? Sure they may walk in a dud in your eyes but there is no reason why they should stay that way. Secondly, many companies can take a good engineer, not use the…

From a purely utility-maximizing perspective, it's easy to see what happened. Training people costs time and money, both in non-productivity of the new person, and lost productivity from the people training them. Also, there's a fair to good chance that once you train a new person and they get a couple years of experience, they will jump ship and leave you in the same position as when you started. If you look at it this way, it's better to hire a person who can already do the job than it is to hire someone who might be able to do it with a lot of training. (And yes I know it's a chicken and egg problem of who betrayed whom first with respect to long-term employee retention over the last few decades).

The notable exception to this thinking is in established firms where there is a specific methodology and persona they wish all employees to have. Ex. the major consultancies, law firms, investment banks, etc. For them, it's generally best to pick a completely fresh person (new grad) and mold them into exactly what the company wants without having to "undo" things they may have learned elsewhere.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#334

Post by pasquinelli »

balls187 wrote: post #36

Indians of Asian descent are a minority in the US, but well represented in Software Engineering. Further, there are plenty more Indian, Chinese, and Russian female engineers, than there are American (of european, aka White) female engineers. I am less inclined to believe there is systemic bias against women, and minorities, and instead a culture difference between groups who are well represented in engineering, and g…

why? why should you be more inclined to think the explanation is found in a pertinent cultural difference between two large groups of people, (asian women, non-asian women) rather than that the explanation is to be found in the culture of one, small group, (tech)? maybe you're right, but i don't understand the inclination.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#335

Post by ubernostrum »

flukus wrote: post #321
ubernostrum wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you assuming that there is some genetic or evolutionary reason for men to like cars? That somehow it is hard-coded into the Y chromosome to like cars? Or have you considered the possibility that social conditioning can make a large difference in what hobbies and preferences someone ends up having?

No assumption necessary, we are a sexually dimorphic species.

Except we've heard this exact excuse -- "women just aren't interested in X, men are" -- before, and it's turned out to be wrong. Plenty of other fields people just said "oh, women don't like that/aren't interested"... until concerted effort to break down biases and barriers, and then suddenly "oh, guess they do like and are interested, we'd just been keeping them out all this time".

So any "in a highly convenient coincidence, human sexual dimorphism just happens to prevent women being interested in/good at my field of endeavor" argument should at this point probably carry a presumption of incorrectness (and of same for anyone advancing said argument, if not presumption of outright bias/discrimination) until overwhelming evidence is provided in support.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#336

Post by LnxPrgr3 »

taneq wrote: post #247
morgante wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't the message of "you are your accomplishments" make men more likely to give up after a failure rather than less?

Subtle(ish) distinction: You aren't your past accomplishments, you are your capability to generate future accomplishments. Who is more likely to persevere; someone who believes they have to keep achieving things or they are worthless, or someone to whom achievements are a nice bonus to the intrinsic value that they already have?

Depends: does the first option shrug off failures and keep at it, or become suicidally depressed and die?

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#337

Post by thegayngler »

mdorazio wrote: post #333
thegayngler wrote: post #296

I think it makes more sense to hire people you like who you think can do the job. Then train those individuals to be the employees you want. That is where your diversity will come in. What happened to businesses and people investing in and training other people? Sure they may walk in a dud in your eyes but there is no reason why they should stay that way. Secondly, many companies can take a good engineer, not use the…

From a purely utility-maximizing perspective, it's easy to see what happened. Training people costs time and money, both in non-productivity of the new person, and lost productivity from the people training them. Also, there's a fair to good chance that once you train a new person and they get a couple years of experience, they will jump ship and leave you in the same position as when you started. If you look at it t…

I can certainly see where you are coming from. As you stated, it is a chicken and egg problem somewhat.

However, if the person has no background whatsoever that's actually different than someone who has some verifiable experience but just isn't what you would like initially.

Wouldn't it make sense to take in someone who has some experience then train them. Sure they may leave but they may not if you treat them well. An employee leaving in the tech world is always a risk. I notice many companies spend all of their efforts hiring but very little effort is exerted to retain people.

At the end of the day the tech world could stand to give back to the community in some way. If it means taking on a bit more hiring risk, its a small service to the communities they've taken so much from.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#338

Post by wpietri »

FT_intern wrote: post #322
wpietri wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok. I believe you don't see it. Many people don't. How can I help you with that?

You didn't give any examples of it. I completely agree with the 2nd paragraph about technological/software diversity advantages.

I'm glad to try. What sort of example would you find helpful?

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#339

Post by droopyEyelids »

tuxidomasx wrote: post #129

I think the conversation about diversity in tech often overlooks a key metric, which is the percentage of tech companies that are founded by and/or employ a majority of minorities. For example, if its accurate to say that over 88% of US tech companies are founded by white people and employ mostly white people, then a diversity issue exists in the number of tech companies founded by black people and employing mostly b…

Dude, that is sharp thinking. Really turns the whole approach to this issue on it's head and poses some interesting questions.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#340

Post by [deleted] »

234dd57d2c8db wrote: post #304
dreta wrote: post #121

"We believe that technical interviewing is a broken process for everyone but that the flaws within the system hit underrepresented groups the hardest… because they haven’t had the chance to internalize just how much of technical interviewing is a numbers game.” I understand that people here hate technical interviews, but are we going to skip over the fact that the whole premise of this article is that the technical i…

Someone gets it. Funny how people who are so "moral", actually end up being incredibly immoral and biased. Here's a question: if there's such a demand for solutions that solve a problem that the "majority" can't see, why don't women and minorities just start their own companies to solve those problems and make piles of $$$? Reality check: building a good team is a struggle for every race, culture, gender, and individ…

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