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You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

blog.interviewing.io

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Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "If there were good candidates being passed up, they would certainly congregate elsewhere and create success." BS, that's a dodge. I've seen plenty of people (regardless of their background, ethnicity, or gender) who've been screwed by the system and have spent way too long in crappy jobs where they were unable to make much of a difference. Some people get lucky and early on they find jobs where their talent can sh…

That's not been my experience at all. I've generally seen good people get ahead. Sure everyone has personal setbacks but en mass it's definitely not an issue.

How diverse would you say your friend/acquaintance group is? Are they from the same background as you? Do they have similar life stories? If not, how can you possibly imagine that you're not just soaking in confirmation bias?

Don't like my opinion? How about someone else's opinion? https://sockpuppet.org/blog/2015/03/06/the-hiring-post/

There are countless examples of talented people who have been ill-served by the hiring environment and tech culture we have today. For every one of them that gets lucky and finds success through non-traditional hiring practices at a great company (for example) you have to wonder how many others (others who live where there is less opportunity, etc.) are just passed by and left behind by the system.

Your attitude is very much a "let them eat cake" attitude. You look around and you say "everyone I know is successful, what are all these other people's problems?" Trust me, there are poor people out there, there are disadvantaged people out there, and partly because of unfairness built into the economy and our culture. And that extends even into the tech world. There are tons of talented people who are unemployed, underemployed, or otherwise disadvantaged simply because they don't match the traditional model of what a talented tech person looks like.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#292
post #87

Agreed, the American system from early age to adulthood puts women and minorities on a path to laziness. As an example, they get better grades for less effort and free money to pursue education. They expect the business world to be the same way, and when they realize just how much work goes into becoming a successful software engineer, they give up and do something easier for less pay. I would to if I could! In Russi…

We don't need such baseless, inflammatory comments like this on Hacker News. The bar for civility and substantiveness is higher on controversial topics, not lower. We've detached this flagged comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12859390 .

I don't think this was inflammatory or uncivil. Definitely highly controversial, definitely baseless (like every other comment on HN) but not inflammatory or uncivil.

I would have voted it down because I disagree, but I don't think censorship is justified.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#293
The easiest way to fix "diversity in tech" would be to reduce the number of H1B visas, which in the tech sector overwhelmingly go to overwhelmingly overrepresented Asians.

But in practice, "diversity" is ~exclusively used as an anti-white & especially anti-white-male cudgel, so of course that will not happen.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#294
post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's part of the problem, but not all of the problem. There are plenty of women who want to be in STEM fields, and have pushed for that in spite of everything. It's hard to actually get into a STEM job as a woman, regardless of education or experience, because of various biases in hiring. Once in, there are so many ways that the workplace is hostile to women, and the industry even more so. That leads to a high rate o…

> It's hard to actually get into a STEM job as a woman, regardless of education or experience, because of various biases in hiring. Absolutely false. They even have their own hiring fairs and events that men aren't invited to. I'll give you the rest of the points in your comment but getting an entry level job is very easy for men and even easier for equally qualified women.

> They even have their own hiring fairs and events that men aren't invited to.

That's a non sequitur; just because there are things to ease the process for them does not mean that it is easier. The job fairs would mean that it's easier, in a vacuum. It's not in a vacuum. There are other effects that the job fairs can only chip away at.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#295
I found the article interesting and it sync'd with my experience in one significant way. When I started doing interviews after nearly a decade at the same job I was way out of practice. I blew an interview at Google, I still feel embarrassed thinking about it. But then I upped my game, by taking Coursera classes on algorithms, hacker rank, etc. I really worked on it. I ended up getting so much better. Got a good job. As for the article, it is interesting to me that women are 7x more likely to give up after blowing an interview. Obviously they don't realize how much practice makes perfect.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#296
I think it makes more sense to hire people you like who you think can do the job. Then train those individuals to be the employees you want. That is where your diversity will come in. What happened to businesses and people investing in and training other people? Sure they may walk in a dud in your eyes but there is no reason why they should stay that way.

Secondly, many companies can take a good engineer, not use them correctly, run them off or turn them into a bad engineer for your company. There is too much emphasis on what a candidate already is and not enough emphasis on what you can mold your candidate to be after they are hired.

Training people on the job is where your diversity will come from. I noticed that many people got in the door with less skill than the people they are hiring.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#297
post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you see anything incongruous in the way you are comfortable casually rejecting InclinedPlane's experience but using your personal experience to conclude that it's not a widespread problem?

Why is their experience more valid than mine? I'll go with my own observations before that of an HN commenter. Yes, I know that's what I am too.

Do you not understand that these are not comparable things? Your position is that no one in tech is generally ill-served by the system, which is backed up by your own personal experience. I've shared with you the fact that I've seen many examples of people ill-served by the system. That is a direct counter-example against your position, and as such invalidates your claim.

The only way it doesn't is if I'm lying. Are you calling me a liar? Or are you just too narrow-minded to imagine that there are experiences outside of the bubble you live in?

Are you claiming that my experiences and observations are too narrow and un-representative of the industry whereas yours are more general and representative? By what basis do you make that claim?

Edit: Evaluate it from a logical perspective. There are two hypotheses: that iniquity in hiring in tech don't exist, and that they do exist and are somewhat common. Then evaluate the "evidence". On the one hand we have your experience, where you've seen a lack of iniquity, on the other we have mine, where I've seen plenty of examples of iniquity. And we have the example I gave of other observations of iniquity, and the evidence from the article for this whole discussion, which also highlights examples of iniquity. If iniquity was common, we would still expect some situations where it was locally uncommon, especially among people of similar cultural/socio-economic backgrounds, so you would not expect a complete absence of perspectives like yours, you'd expect a mix of perspectives. If iniquity was uncommon, you'd expect that there would be very few perspectives with examples of iniquity. The only way the evidence in front of us makes sense under that hypothesis is if I'm a unicorn with utterly unusual and unique experiences, as are the examples from the article and from the sources I've brought up. That is a much less intellectually tenable position, to claim that all of the evidence against your favored hypothesis doesn't matter because it's all outliers or otherwise unreprestantive. Meanwhile, how do you explain the statistics which show that there are systematic iniquities in the system? How do you explain the countless stories with examples of people who have been ill-served by the system as it exists? Your claim seems to be incredibly weak and based on nothing more than a refusal to accept that anything outside of your own personal experience is real or important.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention the throwaway account. I wish HN would fix that problem already. It brings the level of discourse way down.

Throwaway accounts allow people to express views that aren't politically correct. If all your views are politically correct this may seem like a bad thing, but for people with views that aren't politically correct throw away accounts allow participation.

But, if everyone uses throwaway accounts to say what they really want to say, then it just helps perpetuate the same political correctness that they dislike.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#299
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Something is wrong. Most software is not getting written correctly, on time, or on budget. On top of this, it is nearly impossible to fill positions with qualified applicants. True. > Given that, there is a pretty strong argument that we should change the way we hire software developers and an obvious way to change it is to be more inclusive. What is this 'strong argument'? Your conclusion "be more inclusive" is ba…

The argument is we could hardly be worse. I'm not convinced we know what qualified even looks like. We certainly can't tell in any objective way. Given that a purely random inclusion of more applicants is likely to improve the situation. Thats before arguing for the merits of a diverse work force or relying on moral imperatives.

It could be much worse. Simply making random changes and hoping it is an improvement rather than making things worse is not sensible.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what, we just let everyone who says they can code in? That's how fizzbuzz was born.

Stating for the 1e100th time in discussions of this topic: whiteboard interviews do not test coding ability and do not usefully distinguish people who are able to code from people who are not . So any argument proceeding from the assumption that doing away with them equates to no longer testing for ability to code is invalid and contains a known-false assumption.

Yes I agree with this. I even stated as such, that I give and prefer to get coding tests using an actual computer. I'm not talking about those.

f I ask someone the complexity of searching a binary tree, or show them a double for loop with that iterates over the same collection in each loop, and ask them the complexity of that, I expect them to say logn and n^2. Bonus points for addressing best, average, and worst case performances and what kind of data drives those.

If I ask someone to write a small program at their own laptop to parse an integer, I expect them to be able to do that. This shows the absolute bare minimum in competency at the job you'll be asked to perform.

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