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You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

blog.interviewing.io

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Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#271

Post by labster »

solipsism wrote: post #259
ubernostrum wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you have an argument that's A) deeper then a copy/paste soundbite, B) doesn't contain an informal fallacy ("how dare you try to fix this one instance of a problem until you've fixed every other instance of it first, and I'll use this no matter which instance you go after first"), and C) doesn't require you to look like a 1990s $la$hdot u$er talking about Micro$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$oft, maybe we could have a constru…

Not to mention the throwaway account. I wish HN would fix that problem already. It brings the level of discourse way down.

I doubt they will. The universe just isn't about you, solipsism.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#272

Post by HaloZero »

BlackAura wrote: post #262
throwaway420 wrote: post #148

I'm waiting with great anticipation for the politically correct outcry to solve the problem of not enough women being represented in the mining, construction, sanitation, logging, or deep sea fishing industries, or for there be a popular movement to get more men into teaching or nursing where they're also dramatically underrepresented there. Let's see if there's any intellectual honesty here, or maybe there's somethi…

> Let's see if there's any intellectual honesty here Have you tried looking, before just assuming that such things don't already exist? I mean, a simple Google search will find plenty of industry groups, in multiple countries, dedicated to supporting women in all of those industries. They encourage women to pursue careers in those industries, do advocacy and education, and work with the industry to try to fix the pro…

Even if they are initiatives to have inclusiveness into other fields, I think the throwaway account has a point about how in computers it's a bit more about money but more importantly also about influence.

The software we create can be used by millions of people. If all that is dominated by white men, then there are limitations to that. I would advocate that a diverse workforce allows for that more than anything else.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#273

Post by avasylev »

inimino wrote: post #231
avasylev wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm one of the people who ask those algorithm/white board questions. I've read a lot criticism on this topic, here're my reasons to stil keep asking these questions: 1) Working on algorithm problem requires very little in common between interviewer and interviewee. I'm C++/C#, I won't be able to give Ruby dev a real world task and evaluate it properly. Algo/data structure problems are universal and looks similar in a…

Your first point suggests these questions have some value for you in identifying people's skills. Fair enough. Your second argument admits that this is basically a hazing ritual. Of course you will have to learn some things you don't intrinsically care about in the course of your work. The difference is, that isn't part of a process that we intentionally designed to be that way. Admitting that your hiring process req…

You can't make conclusion just from second argument alone. It's not hazing ritual because my first point. But I also think knowing them is useful, but I see a lot of people arguing it not needed at all. So what I tried to say in second, that regardless of what one thinks on usefulness of Algo knowledge,there's no excuse to ignore algorithm and expect to pass interviews.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#274

Post by acdha »

exstudent2 wrote: post #218
InclinedPlane wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "If there were good candidates being passed up, they would certainly congregate elsewhere and create success." BS, that's a dodge. I've seen plenty of people (regardless of their background, ethnicity, or gender) who've been screwed by the system and have spent way too long in crappy jobs where they were unable to make much of a difference. Some people get lucky and early on they find jobs where their talent can sh…

That's not been my experience at all. I've generally seen good people get ahead. Sure everyone has personal setbacks but en mass it's definitely not an issue.

Do you see anything incongruous in the way you are comfortable casually rejecting InclinedPlane's experience but using your personal experience to conclude that it's not a widespread problem?

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#275

Post by flukus »

throwaway729 wrote: post #265
flukus wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we have a moral imperative to eliminate unfair and discriminatory barriers to entry because its the right thing to do. First you have to demonstrate that those barriers exist.

From the article: "After drawing on data from thousands of technical interviews, it’s become clear to us that technical interviewing is a process whose results are nondeterministic and often arbitrary. We believe that technical interviewing is a broken process for everyone but that the flaws within the system hit underrepresented groups the hardest… because they haven’t had the chance to internalize just how much of…

> because they haven’t had the chance to internalize just how much of technical interviewing is a numbers game

Which means the barrier is themselves, not discrimination.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#276

Post by throw_away_777 »

solipsism wrote: post #259
ubernostrum wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you have an argument that's A) deeper then a copy/paste soundbite, B) doesn't contain an informal fallacy ("how dare you try to fix this one instance of a problem until you've fixed every other instance of it first, and I'll use this no matter which instance you go after first"), and C) doesn't require you to look like a 1990s $la$hdot u$er talking about Micro$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$oft, maybe we could have a constru…

Not to mention the throwaway account. I wish HN would fix that problem already. It brings the level of discourse way down.

Throwaway accounts allow people to express views that aren't politically correct. If all your views are politically correct this may seem like a bad thing, but for people with views that aren't politically correct throw away accounts allow participation.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#277

Post by aianus »

BlackAura wrote: post #269
protomyth wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As to B, I would say the biggest problem tech faces is the education specifically daycare and elementary school do not have equal gender representation or qualified, enthusiastic STEM instructors. We need to fix that and not only demonstrate in classrooms professionals working together regardless of sex and make STEM something to dream with instead of being dreaded. Until we fix the classroom that forms early childho…

It's part of the problem, but not all of the problem. There are plenty of women who want to be in STEM fields, and have pushed for that in spite of everything. It's hard to actually get into a STEM job as a woman, regardless of education or experience, because of various biases in hiring. Once in, there are so many ways that the workplace is hostile to women, and the industry even more so. That leads to a high rate o…

> It's hard to actually get into a STEM job as a woman, regardless of education or experience, because of various biases in hiring.

Absolutely false. They even have their own hiring fairs and events that men aren't invited to. I'll give you the rest of the points in your comment but getting an entry level job is very easy for men and even easier for equally qualified women.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#278

Post by ubernostrum »

flukus wrote: post #267
ubernostrum wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the context of "diversity", which is taken to imply increasing the population of currently-underrepresented groups in the industry, responding with "just hire the best" only makes sense if one believes those groups do not by definition contain "the best", since otherwise everyone who already claims to "hire the best" would have hired from those groups.

It's in the context of hiring though, "the best" means "the best available".

No, it means "the best we're willing to hire".

I work in an office full of people who kick ass but wouldn't make it past the phone screen at most "hire the best" places. Their loss is our gain.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#279

Post by ryanx435 »

douche wrote: post #263
weberc2 wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't characteristic of U.S. factories; the costs associated with workplace injury are so high that employers are obsessed with near misses (i.e., non-injuries) and ergonomics (lever too high? We'll lower it. Reaching across your chest? We'll change your work station. Standing on concrete too long? We'll install ergonomic floor mats.). These companies employ men through their 60s. Women certainly can (and do!) w…

That's kind of moving the goal-posts; we were discussing construction, which, at least in my experience, has a lot less OSHA oversight. Probably it is different in more unionized sectors as well; my experience is decidedly not - smaller logging, construction and power generation companies, where you often don't have the equipment to really do things correctly, for whatever reason, but it has to get done, and so brute…

> we were discussing construction, which, at least in my experience, has a lot less OSHA oversight

ok. obviously you have never worked construction.

https://www.osha.gov/doc/index.html

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#280

Post by [deleted] »

BlackAura wrote: post #269
protomyth wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As to B, I would say the biggest problem tech faces is the education specifically daycare and elementary school do not have equal gender representation or qualified, enthusiastic STEM instructors. We need to fix that and not only demonstrate in classrooms professionals working together regardless of sex and make STEM something to dream with instead of being dreaded. Until we fix the classroom that forms early childho…

It's part of the problem, but not all of the problem. There are plenty of women who want to be in STEM fields, and have pushed for that in spite of everything. It's hard to actually get into a STEM job as a woman, regardless of education or experience, because of various biases in hiring. Once in, there are so many ways that the workplace is hostile to women, and the industry even more so. That leads to a high rate o…

[deleted]
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