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In Greece, Property Is Debt

nytimes.com

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Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#261

Post by bonzini »

honkhonkpants wrote: post #234
Bartweiss wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the answer to your first question is "if you put it up at public auction tomorrow, that would be totally illegal." There are huge legal barriers to property sales, including requirements for energy audits and certification that the construction is wholly legal - which is probably isn't. Just like in the US, a great many safe and livable Greek properties violate zoning laws. Real assets are salable, but in thi…

Zoning laws in the US don't govern anything other than the initial certificate of occupancy in most US states. They are irrelevant for subsequent sales.

In order to sell (in Italy) the building must have the same plan (roofs, doors, windows, walls, ...) that was declared when it was built first. You can pay a fine if there are differences, but only if the actual plan obeys the zoning laws now and would have obeyed them at the time the certificate of occupancy was last released.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#262

Post by linkregister »

brianwawok wrote: post #233
kkapelon wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody would buy the house (apart from foreigners) because it is now linked to the tax that everybody wants to avoid. Also cash flow is a big problem for everybody so it is hard to find somebody that has 90.000 in cash and also willing to buy it. Move to where? Another city? Another country? Unemployment is everywhere in Greece. I am not even mentioning the sentimental factor of being forced to sell your parents hous…

So as somebody NOT from Greece (from the US in fact).. I have always had to pay tax on any property I own. If someone died and I got their property.. I would need to pay tax. Not sure how that is "unexpected"? If the tax was more than I could afford, I would sell it. If I liked the place, maybe I would move there.

Estate tax in the U.S. is nil under $5 million [1]. If you paid tax on property you inherited, then I congratulate you on your windfall and mourn the loss of that relative.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estate_tax_in_the_United_State...

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#263

Post by hx87 »

aluhut wrote: post #249
hx87 wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uncertainty would be less of a problem if the ECB's stated goal would be to defend the money supply in the Eurozone through mass distribution.

There are many uncertainties. Like the one regarding the fact that you can get an absolution from the ECB if you cause enough havoc. Or the one where you shouldn't invest in any country that may even smell slightly endangered (which would actually cause that north/south europe contruct). On the other hand it may even lure in even more "evil" investments with the right insurance. All this with a fast devaluating Euro?…

I'm not sure how redistribution of wealth in case of a financial crisis counts as "absolution" from the ECB--if your 1000 person firm causes a 5000 Euro per capita loss in the money supply, your company is busted and everyone there ends up with 5 million Euros combined, which is small money by finance company/bank standards. It's not that much of a change from existing practice--all central banks defend their money supply to some extent. The only difference is that they would do so through every citizen in every country where the currency is official instead of only major banks, so the money actually gets spent instead of being hoarded and banks can't make massive profits through monetary arbitrage.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#264

Post by return0 »

charlesdm wrote: post #254
return0 wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey we are not all shipping magnates! For a greek at this point, the taxes are extremely heavy, because you have to add mandatory insurance costs. The current govt. has chosen taxes instead of public sector cuts, so greece is bad for business at the moment. Local businesses are looking to neighboring low-tax countries for relief (bulgaria/cyprus). Depends on what is your definition of fun living. The islands are cert…

Cool. Where would you say the best places are to live?

big subject, and i m likely to start civil war with other greeks here. Certainly its better somewhere with an airport (preferably international). Salonica can be great, or some island. I am biased, but Crete is usually loved by visitors and expats.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#265

Post by hx87 »

nitrogen wrote: post #218
antisthenes wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of all the scenarios you posted, this is actually the easiest to solve: > 3) I am 75 years old living with my wife who is 70 years old in the house that we bought in 1950. We are both retired farmers. Our pension is 500 euros in total. In 1950 the area we selected for our house turned out to be a popular one (in 1950 it was just an empty field). Government passes the law and our house has a value of 500.000 (beca…

I want to make explicit the sentiment that I think underlies some of the comments here. For much of Western human existence, families could own, inherit, and stay in one place for generations. But now, catastrophic value inflation, property taxes, eminent domain, etc. threaten that expectation of stability. It shouldn't be surprising that people who don't value a migratory lifestyle are upset by being forced to aband…

> For much of Western human existence, families could own, inherit, and stay in one place for generations.

...if they weren't expropriated by their overlords, driven off by war/disease/famine/poverty, etc. Staying in one region was common, but having the same house for generations on end was still an exception.

Besides, moving every 30 years or so is hardly migratory.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#266

Post by AnimalMuppet »

crdoconnor wrote: post #236
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's how it goes when you take money from someone in order to keep from disaster. They get a say in how things go thereafter. You write this as if some Greek politicians just woke up one morning and decided to hand over sovereignty to foreigners. That's not how it happened. Greece was forced into it, because Greece had to have foreign money in order to survive. It's been known for 3000 years what the conseque…

>It's been known for 3000 years what the consequences of that situation are - the borrower becomes the lender's slave Didn't think I'd ever see slavery - debt or otherwise - defended on HN.

I didn't defend it. I said that, in the real world we actually live in, that's the way it goes. Actions have consequences. Ignoring that, and then claiming "It's not right!" when the consequences hit... that's not very wise.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#267

Post by hx87 »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #229
crdoconnor wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why is it that these people are nice and kind when they finance your government spending for decades but turn into facist greedy bastards when they come asking for their money back? They're not trying to get their money back. They're simply taking the reins of power and threatening economic catastrophe if they're disobeyed. It ought to be obvious to anybody with a functioning brain that Greece is not paying down its…

Well, that's how it goes when you take money from someone in order to keep from disaster. They get a say in how things go thereafter. You write this as if some Greek politicians just woke up one morning and decided to hand over sovereignty to foreigners. That's not how it happened. Greece was forced into it, because Greece had to have foreign money in order to survive. It's been known for 3000 years what the conseque…

> It's been known for 3000 years what the consequences of that situation are - the borrower becomes the lender's slave (Proverbs 22:7)

What Proverbs failed to mention is that if the debt is big enough with respect to the lender, it's the other way around.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#268

Post by tajen »

yagodragon wrote: post #68

I live in Greece and things are bad but as a matter of fact, the real problem is that we ,the Millennials, feel that we're screwed because we compare ourself with our parents. Our parents and our politicians really scammed the whole europe into believing that we have a strong economy but the truth is that everyone avoided paying taxes, they got huge loans that could never pay of and our politicians where really corru…

I was wondering whether some Greeks saw through the surface. Your opinion seems the right to me: The older generation didn't know what paying taxes feels like. In France, if you have a company, 63% of the company's income goes into taxes before it lands as purchasing power to you (mostly, our VAT is 20%, mandatory insurances are 46% of the remainder, income tax is 23% and so on). When I hear outrage from the Greek people, it's often that their taxes are getting aligned with the norm and are still lower.

But the problem isn't taxes or respect of the law. The problem is that there are no jobs, partly because high taxes require a reorganization of the job market, and partly because no-one wants to trade with Greece, given they seem capable of switching to Communism any day from now.

I'm sorry for your situation. I hope you can find a remote job in programming, and bring a bit of business into your country.

...And I pray that France doesn't fall into this situation in 15 years. Too few people in France are invested in making businesses run, and most people believe employers are thieves, with barely any knowledge of how the economy works.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#269

Post by muse900 »

1337biz wrote: post #227
muse900 wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I won't agree with you just because you are presenting "some" numbers. I know for a fact that my parents that live in Greece, and do not rent and own 3 flats and 1 house all of them divided equally to a different person within the family including me have to pay an "emergency" taxation on the electrical bill which is a lot of money. (A LOT OF MONEY!) Atm my parents are pensioniers and they don't rent neither have any…

Just curious - why do they hold on to those flats if they don't rent them out?

because the flats value is 30% of what it was in 2008, while we know that 2008 and before is not coming back, they are located in Central Athens and no matter what happens in lets say 50 years from now their value might be up to what it was before.

Also don't forget the sentimental value as well, my dad bought 1 of the flats himself with his hard earning while he survived the invasion of Cyprus and lost everything there. He is old as well so good luck getting him to sell the only thing he acquired in his life.

Same goes for my mom, she inherited the 2 flats and the house and they belonged to her family since before WW2 for the flats and since the 1900 for the house. Very hard to sell on that.

But again think even if someone more greedy that doesn't understand the sentimental value of the property gets his/her hands on it, still imagine you have to sell for 250k-300k while in 2008 it was costing 1m. Again this is just an example but it shows the price drop and again since they are in central Athens which is a city for a very long time in history at some point their prices will climb up again, not the the maximum but still.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#270

Post by gnopgnip »

sliverstorm wrote: post #151
kkapelon wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Numbers don't really say anything if you don't explain who decides them. Here are two scenarios for you 1)I live in Greece and get 400 Euros a month and barely break even. I live in a house (inherited by my parents) that would fetch probably 90.000 in the market. Government says that it really costs 300.000 euros. I get taxed for it even though I cannot really afford it. 2)I am unemployed and live with my parents. Th…

Corrupt tax valuations are a problem, but it's practically one of the tenants of property tax that it is supposed to elbow you out if you can't afford the tax. It's not "nice" to say, but one of the purposes of property tax is to serve as a market force to encourage better usage of valuable land.

The fix is to locally elect the property tax assessors. If they are dramatically overvaluing property they will not be re elected.
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