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Why I don't want Flash to die (and you shouldn't either)

waxpraxis.org

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Re: Why I don't want Flash to die (and you shouldn't either)

#31

Post by emehrkay »

emehrkay wrote: post #25

I've said it before; there needs to be an flash-like IDE for html canvas (and whatever Microsoft uses) that outputs html, css, and javascript (maybe its own library or it would use something like mootools or yui). This IDE could start off as a clone of earlier flash versions where you just manipulate shapes over time( http://dev.w3.org/html5/canvas-api/canvas-2d-api.html#images ) and of course you could do more usefu…

Wait a second

http://glimr.rubyforge.org/cake/canvas.html#CatmullRom

Re: Why I don't want Flash to die (and you shouldn't either)

#33

Post by irrelative »

The author of this hits on a really important topic in my opinion: that for all of the talk about adhering to the standards, in every other field of engineering adhering to the standards it the absolute bare minimum to have a product.

Imagine if you made cars and you didn't conform to the safety standard? Obviously that wouldn't work and you'd be shut down. However, a lot of web standards zealots seem to imply that meeting the standard is a great goal to achieve. There needs to be a bunch more innovation in all browsers, even just as tech demos or features for the vendor's home page so that other browsers can adopt the ideas.

Basically I think the author is spot on, but I wish it didn't have to be done through Flash.

Re: Why I don't want Flash to die (and you shouldn't either)

#34

Post by Semiapies »

apitaru wrote: post #27
kaddar wrote: post #5

I want flash to die; I just don't want closed platform policies to kill it.

"I want flash to die" Adobe and Macromedia were a startup once, just like many companies by HN members. I want Adobe and its technologies to improve, not die.

Everything was a startup once. Not all technologies are necessary, and some fall by the wayside.

Re: Why I don't want Flash to die (and you shouldn't either)

#35

Post by RyanMcGreal »

The author makes a compelling case for Flash as a vector of innovation, but he really misses the case against Flash. I haven't seen any critiques of Flash based around the idea that it's "conformist". Rather, the critiques focus on one or more of the following issues:

* It breaks web standards like persistent URLs and the back button (granted, there are some workarounds) and eschews native UI elements.

* It is inaccessible to visually impaired users.

* It is built on closed, proprietary technology, which raises both principled and pragmatic concerns (one pragmatic concern is the poor security framework, which might be ameliorated by more eyeballs on the source code).

* It tends to emphasize superfluous visuals over meaningful content (this isn't a requirement of Flash but it's a common result arising from Flash's dominant motifs).

And finally, a posterior observation:

* An awful lot of Flash applications just suck.

Re: Why I don't want Flash to die (and you shouldn't either)

#36

Post by warfangle »

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #35

The author makes a compelling case for Flash as a vector of innovation, but he really misses the case against Flash. I haven't seen any critiques of Flash based around the idea that it's "conformist". Rather, the critiques focus on one or more of the following issues: * It breaks web standards like persistent URLs and the back button (granted, there are some workarounds) and eschews native UI elements. * It is inacce…

Very succinct. Concur completely. Flash has its place (video, games; both of which HTML5 are catching quickly up to). Its place isn't in making an entire, un-navigable, un-deep-linkable, animation-heavy site that takes me ten minutes to figure out how to use.

One of the comments on there said, "but check out thewfa! You can't make THOSE websites in html5!"

And my immediate, lizard brain response was: "Why would I want to? I bet their bounce rates are through the roof, and their return traffic approaches nil."

Re: Why I don't want Flash to die (and you shouldn't either)

#37

Post by there »

waxpraxis wrote: post #30
there wrote: post #22

flash will eventually go the way of java applets. modern browsers will be able to do 99% of what you need to do and for that remaining 1%, you'll have this clunky web browser plugin that you probably have disabled by default for security reasons, that you'll decide not to turn on to view the particular website and just hit the back button or let the blue square icon sit there. browsers can now natively play video, pl…

Some browsers can do all of those things - but you've still only scratched the surface of what Flash can do TODAY with 98% penetration. As for webcam support, some people feel that HTML 5 as a spec will be fully out there and usable by 2022. I wonder when enough browser makers will start on their PROPRIETARY webcam interfaces? Do you think Flash will stand still in that time? Suddenly jump from 98% to 0%?

it will "stand" just as java applets "stand" today. it will still be supported, but it will be seen as a clunky alternative to open technologies that are supported on a wider variety of devices, many of which won't have flash support for any number of reasons.

i say this as a user with three major devices (computer, phone, and tablet) that have no flash support, and am happy to see the proliferation of more open technologies and the doing away with of proprietary, insecure, buggy crutches like flash.

Re: Why I don't want Flash to die (and you shouldn't either)

#38

Post by rimantas » 

  To put that in perspective, right now, somewhere around 60%
  of the browsers in the hands of users aren’t capable of
  rendering the canvas tag.
That's unfortunate choice of words. A lot of browsers that users actually have in hands—those on iPads, iPhones, iPods Touch are indeed better off with canvas, not Flash. I know there is a promise to have Flash on mobiles anytime soon, but not on Apple's devices, and those make up for a huge part of mobile browsing.

Re: Why I don't want Flash to die (and you shouldn't either)

#39

Post by apitaru »

Semiapies wrote: post #34
apitaru wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I want flash to die" Adobe and Macromedia were a startup once, just like many companies by HN members. I want Adobe and its technologies to improve, not die.

Everything was a startup once. Not all technologies are necessary, and some fall by the wayside.

True. By principle I'd rather see U.S. (SV) tech companies improve and thrive rather then die.

In this particular case - the web was ugly before Flash and it'll be just as ugly after it. And as waxpraxi writes, some good did come out of it (force me and i'll make a list : )

Flash is not a gun, it does not kill, and i don't wish it to die.

Re: Why I don't want Flash to die (and you shouldn't either)

#40

Post by weixiyen »

zokier wrote: post #10
jessriedel wrote: post #7

What ever happened with that company with the proprietary video codecs that Google bought? There were rumors that Google was going to adapt it and release it as a better open standard than HTML5

Rumors are that Google is going to release VP8 as fully free codec to resolve -tag codec wars. It supposedly should be comparable to h264 in image quality. But Flash is much more than just video.

> But Flash is much more than just video.

But video is what makes Flash considered 'necessary' for most consumers. The two are almost synonymous so if Google goes through with it, it will be the beginning of the end for Flash.

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