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In Greece, Property Is Debt

nytimes.com

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Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#71

Post by arethuza »

saiya-jin wrote: post #66

> "And yet, the leftist government recently proposed adding further documents and costs to selling or renting property — a compulsory “energy performance” certificate and a civil engineer’s assurance that there are no illegal constructions." Not an expert, nor a citizen/resident, but these seem like a basic things to do. Parents back home had to provide same things recently just for renovation, and much more. There a…

In the middle of selling/buying here in Scotland and energy performance certificates are mandatory and actually very useful - this was a significant factor in helping us choose a property.

Similarly sellers have to get a professional surveyor to do a survey which is that available to all potential buyers.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#72

Post by meira »

netsharc wrote: post #15
DickingAround wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this comment. What about this article makes you think the Greeks can't make decisions for themselves? Is their land unsuitable for farming, and manufacture, and services? Did someone setup an embargo against them? Furthermore, the idea of needing to overhaul things at a global level makes many assumptions. For example, that anyone has the authority and intelligence to tell the entire world how it s…

Decisions for themselves? Hah. It's not in the article, but Schäuble and the other EU finance ministers have set out to make an example out of Greece, or the apparatchiks just don't like the radical lefties that got into power. Paul Krugman has mused, before, EUcrats could tell government officials what to do, and when they follow them, even if the country fails and they get voted out, they'd get cushy EU jobs. But t…

Current greek government is far from left.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#73

Post by antnisp »

Luc wrote: post #33
ferongr wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They probably do. My apartment was made in 1963, 63sqm (670sqft). "Zone price" (i.e. what the government considers the price of 1 sqm of development in a certain region) is 1100 euros, building age multiplier for that is 0.60 so we end with a 660 euro/sqm pric, for a total assessment of 41580 euros. I'd be lucky if I got half of that If I actually tried to sell it at the moment.

One of the comments on the article claims there's 0% tax up to 200k property value. Is this incorrect?

If that were true, all but the most expensive apartments would be tax-free. Btw 200k is about 12 times the average annual income.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#74

Post by flexie »

Let's get facts straight:

The state property tax in Greece is 0% for property up to €200K. Then 0.2 to 1% from €200K to €5M. Then 2% above €2M.

Property taxes are hardly killing the Greek economy and especially not for the poor or the middle class. On the contrary, Greeks are paying very little. The problem is that Greeks used to have much more property than for example Northern Europeans.

For comparison, in Denmark the property tax is 1% up to €406,961. Then 3% for values above that. In addition to this there is a local tax on land value, which is generally 1.6-3.4%.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#75

Post by TorKlingberg »

SamUK96 wrote: post #34

This is what happens when you allow uncontrolled and unregulated asset transfers. There's a reason that pretty much any index/stock in the world freezes when the daily drop exceeds a certain threshold (i.e. Japan, JPX, has a limit of usually ~7% [1]). This prevents panic selling and even though seems like a "delaying-the-inevitable-drop" cop-out, it really does work. Greece Government are stupid as hell for letting e…

You cannot reasonably charge high property taxes and then stop people from sell property they do not want.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#76

Post by simosx »

webscaleizfun wrote: post #37
simosx wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tax would amount to about a month (or two) of rent, if the property was rented. The problem is with properties that are not rented long term.

With austerity feeding on itself as it has been for many years in Greece, the rental market seems to have become flooded with properties. If your citizens have no money, and your economy is shrinking in the double digits every year for years on end, how does anyone do anything economically?

I should probably reply on the overall issue.

The economic troubles of Greece have been similar to those of the eastern european countries. The issue with Greece is that the politicians did not take tough measures early in the crisis and the recovery is too far ahead.

While other countries reduced their headcount in the public sector, in Greece the headcount remains much the same. I blame the politicians, though the political party that manages to win, is the one that offers not to reduce the public sector headcount.

This inability of the politicians is also reflected in the enforcement of the smoking ban. While in public transport there is no smoking, in most restaurants, cafes and elsewhere, the ban is not enforced. Even in the Greek parliament there is smoking, and even the Minister of Health is regularly seen smoking. See https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/52dif3/the_sad_real... and weep.

Frankly, investors should use the smoking issue in Greece as an indicator whether the country is actually recovering. As long as the smoking ban is not enforced, the recovery is not happening.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#77

Post by rjsw »

ferongr wrote: post #5
imaginenore wrote: post #2

The article mentions the word "tax" 14 times, but it never says what it actually is. How bad is it?

A 650 sqft apartment of 1963 vintage is taxed around 250 euros/year

Still less than the property tax on a similar sized apartment in the UK (not in London).

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#78

Post by liotier »

saiya-jin wrote: post #66

> "And yet, the leftist government recently proposed adding further documents and costs to selling or renting property — a compulsory “energy performance” certificate and a civil engineer’s assurance that there are no illegal constructions." Not an expert, nor a citizen/resident, but these seem like a basic things to do. Parents back home had to provide same things recently just for renovation, and much more. There a…

Energy performance certificate, non-toxicity certificate, surface certificate, non-pledge certificate... The basics of a real estate sale in France - they make the transaction more transparent and I'm glad they are mandatory, both as a former buyer and a former seller... They remove a lot of the friction that distrust creates. Framing it as "red tape" that “threaten to turn the country into an endless ‘property graveyard’ where nothing will be sold, nothing will be bought and nothing will be rented” is laughable !

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#79

Post by arethuza »

yagodragon wrote: post #68

I live in Greece and things are bad but as a matter of fact, the real problem is that we ,the Millennials, feel that we're screwed because we compare ourself with our parents. Our parents and our politicians really scammed the whole europe into believing that we have a strong economy but the truth is that everyone avoided paying taxes, they got huge loans that could never pay of and our politicians where really corru…

"Our parents and our politicians"

And Goldman Sachs as well!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greek-debt-cr...

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#80

Post by cgio »

flexie wrote: post #74

Let's get facts straight: The state property tax in Greece is 0% for property up to €200K. Then 0.2 to 1% from €200K to €5M. Then 2% above €2M. Property taxes are hardly killing the Greek economy and especially not for the poor or the middle class. On the contrary, Greeks are paying very little. The problem is that Greeks used to have much more property than for example Northern Europeans. For comparison, in Denmark…

Let's get facts straight. The state property tax in Greece is calculated on a nominal value far removed from market value. This means that a 300K nominal value property cannot sell today for 150K (I know, I have tried.) In practice, as the article mentions property value approaches zero as the market is incredibly shallow. Recalculate on the basis of that and then make the comparison.
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