Philosophy Beyond the Academy • Hacker News Board

Re: Philosophy Beyond the Academy

#21

Post by maverick_iceman » Wed, Nov 02, 2016, 6:03 AM UTC

M_Grey wrote: post #5

igravious wrote: post #3

A timely book. The article is a review of The Philosopher: A History in Six Types By Justin E.H. Smith[1] Philosophical practice has certainly become bound up with academic philosophy. To such an extent that to be a "philosopher" one must become a lecturer in philosophy, preferably tenured because of the added cred. that brings. This is damaging to the grand project of philosophy because it creates an artificial divi…

The last 150 years have seen the rise of science as the dominant force in the intellectual space. A lot of what used to be good and impressive about philosophy, as opposed to just a lot of hand-waving, were the parts which had some overlap with science. The last 150 years has essentially seen a brain-drain from Phil -> Sci. The result is that what's left for philosophers to talk about and contribute is... debatable.…

As Wittgenstein once said, all left for philosophy to do is language analysis.

Re: Philosophy Beyond the Academy

#22

Post by posterboy » Wed, Nov 02, 2016, 9:47 AM UTC

qwrusz wrote: post #6

I'm a big advocate for philosophy to be taught much more among core liberal arts subjects like literature and history. When the largest companies in the world have corporate mottos like "Don't be evil" and politics splits the country into parties incredulous how the other side can even think as they do, it's maybe time to teach a bit more philosophy in schools and a bit less Shakespeare (Will should stay, just make r…

there are the fine arts, and then there are arts as in the art of war or as in Michelangelo's sculptures that were merely regarded as craft (at least when he was young, AFAICT). Compare the ambiguous translations https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/τέχνη in contrast to ars.

Re: Philosophy Beyond the Academy

#23

Post by llamaz » Wed, Nov 02, 2016, 9:54 AM UTC

solipsism wrote: post #19

qwrusz wrote: post #6

I'm a big advocate for philosophy to be taught much more among core liberal arts subjects like literature and history. When the largest companies in the world have corporate mottos like "Don't be evil" and politics splits the country into parties incredulous how the other side can even think as they do, it's maybe time to teach a bit more philosophy in schools and a bit less Shakespeare (Will should stay, just make r…

Meh. Critical thinking skills, yes. The vast majority of the rest of philosophy, no. We don't want to reach peak Kierkegaard.

I have to question whether critical thinking skills are really that important. Truly critcal people are labelled as trouble makers who have issues with authority. People who are obedient, who can play the political game, tend to do much better.

This is obviously true in law and politics, and certainly other professions like engineering. But what surprises people is that it's also true within academia - if you don't conform, you don't get tenure.

The people who are successful often come from higher income households where children are made to attend numerous extra-curricular activities so as to give them an early exposure to "gaming" the political structure of a hierarchical organisation.

Re: Philosophy Beyond the Academy

#24

Post by grp » Wed, Nov 02, 2016, 10:00 AM UTC

solipsism wrote: post #19

qwrusz wrote: post #6

I'm a big advocate for philosophy to be taught much more among core liberal arts subjects like literature and history. When the largest companies in the world have corporate mottos like "Don't be evil" and politics splits the country into parties incredulous how the other side can even think as they do, it's maybe time to teach a bit more philosophy in schools and a bit less Shakespeare (Will should stay, just make r…

Meh. Critical thinking skills, yes. The vast majority of the rest of philosophy, no. We don't want to reach peak Kierkegaard.

If you never learn Kriekegaard, how would you know?

I'm not a big fan of him but I find his view about politics pretty interesting and actual (from an online translator):

Two powers govern the crowds: jealousy and stupidity. Those who govern know how easy it is to win the flock to his views.

In politics, the public is at stake and no matter to have the truth with him. What counts is winning ground. It flatters the lowest desires.

The majority rules as if truth was a matter of numbers. For Kierkegaard, democracy is a danger because the mass does not try to understand, has no ideal and follows one that flatters most.

Against Hegel, he does not believe that moral virtue can be found only in the state. The individual is, however, constantly under threat. The crowd is lying when the individual is the awakening of the spirit.

Re: Philosophy Beyond the Academy

#25

Post by grp » Wed, Nov 02, 2016, 10:21 AM UTC

llamaz wrote: post #23

solipsism wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meh. Critical thinking skills, yes. The vast majority of the rest of philosophy, no. We don't want to reach peak Kierkegaard.

I have to question whether critical thinking skills are really that important. Truly critcal people are labelled as trouble makers who have issues with authority. People who are obedient, who can play the political game, tend to do much better. This is obviously true in law and politics, and certainly other professions like engineering. But what surprises people is that it's also true within academia - if you don't c…

If those children were learning critical thinking, maybe they would not be simple sad extensions of theirs parents.

Two days ago at a welfare office, I said to a 21yo guy: "Take your free time and read! Learn new things!" and he asked me why...

So many lifes wasted just because you have to only be efficient in a broken system.

(I was at that office because of my too much critical thinking label)

Re: Philosophy Beyond the Academy

#26

Post by adrianratnapala » Wed, Nov 02, 2016, 10:41 AM UTC

igravious wrote: post #3

A timely book. The article is a review of The Philosopher: A History in Six Types By Justin E.H. Smith[1] Philosophical practice has certainly become bound up with academic philosophy. To such an extent that to be a "philosopher" one must become a lecturer in philosophy, preferably tenured because of the added cred. that brings. This is damaging to the grand project of philosophy because it creates an artificial divi…

> I think there is a very real sense in which philosophy has taken its eye off the ball in the last 150 years.

Actually I think philosophy is a victim of its own success at keeping its eye on the ball over that period. That is: analytic philosophy has eliminated a lot of bullshit and posturing at the cost of raising up a new scholasticism.

Analytic philosophy is nice and rigorous, and any argument must be defended against opponents within a well developed analytical tool-kit. In maths or science, that would be just dandy. But if any field really was amenable to such rigour it would no longer be called "philosophy".

So we get a conversation between academics where everything seemingly is there for solid analytical reasons, but is really just what evolved particular cultural ecosystem of analytical standards. Outsiders have to learn and adapt all that culture to be heard: and they are thus absorbed into it.

Re: Philosophy Beyond the Academy

#27

Post by empath75 » Wed, Nov 02, 2016, 11:27 AM UTC

M_Grey wrote: post #5

igravious wrote: post #3

A timely book. The article is a review of The Philosopher: A History in Six Types By Justin E.H. Smith[1] Philosophical practice has certainly become bound up with academic philosophy. To such an extent that to be a "philosopher" one must become a lecturer in philosophy, preferably tenured because of the added cred. that brings. This is damaging to the grand project of philosophy because it creates an artificial divi…

The last 150 years have seen the rise of science as the dominant force in the intellectual space. A lot of what used to be good and impressive about philosophy, as opposed to just a lot of hand-waving, were the parts which had some overlap with science. The last 150 years has essentially seen a brain-drain from Phil -> Sci. The result is that what's left for philosophers to talk about and contribute is... debatable.…

Computer science is often just applied philosophy.

Re: Philosophy Beyond the Academy

#28

Post by sir_smurf » Wed, Nov 02, 2016, 1:00 PM UTC

llamaz wrote: post #23

solipsism wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meh. Critical thinking skills, yes. The vast majority of the rest of philosophy, no. We don't want to reach peak Kierkegaard.

I have to question whether critical thinking skills are really that important. Truly critcal people are labelled as trouble makers who have issues with authority. People who are obedient, who can play the political game, tend to do much better. This is obviously true in law and politics, and certainly other professions like engineering. But what surprises people is that it's also true within academia - if you don't c…

No, this isn't obviously true.

Criticizing and critical thinking isn't the same thing.

Re: Philosophy Beyond the Academy

#29

Post by M_Grey » Wed, Nov 02, 2016, 1:26 PM UTC

Erik816 wrote: post #13

M_Grey wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest, that sounds to me like playing in the gaps because that's what's left, and those gaps are likely to be filled one by one.

Science is unlikely to fill in gaps of subjective experience and values, because it explicitly rules out subjective experience as part of its method. Which it should do. But then it can't very well claim that subjective experience has no value simply because it has no scientific value.

It's more likely that there are objective ways to measure subjective experiences, and that in the next century of progress in fields such as neuroscience, that's just what will happen. Again, playing in the gaps isn't as impressive when those gaps are slowly, yet inevitably closing. That's the story of the last 150 years, and the slow fall of philosophy.

Re: Philosophy Beyond the Academy

#30

Post by justin66 » Wed, Nov 02, 2016, 3:33 PM UTC

M_Grey wrote: post #5

igravious wrote: post #3

A timely book. The article is a review of The Philosopher: A History in Six Types By Justin E.H. Smith[1] Philosophical practice has certainly become bound up with academic philosophy. To such an extent that to be a "philosopher" one must become a lecturer in philosophy, preferably tenured because of the added cred. that brings. This is damaging to the grand project of philosophy because it creates an artificial divi…

The last 150 years have seen the rise of science as the dominant force in the intellectual space. A lot of what used to be good and impressive about philosophy, as opposed to just a lot of hand-waving, were the parts which had some overlap with science. The last 150 years has essentially seen a brain-drain from Phil -> Sci. The result is that what's left for philosophers to talk about and contribute is... debatable.…

> A lot of what used to be good and impressive about philosophy, as opposed to just a lot of hand-waving, were the parts which had some overlap with science.

This is such a strangely ahistorical point of view. The obvious conterexample: we managed to get a little mileage out of political philosophy, which has no "overlap with science" in the way you mean. Creation of modern democracy and so on.