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Argonne researchers posit way to locally circumvent Second Law of Thermodynamics

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101–110 of 144 posts

Re: Argonne researchers posit way to locally circumvent Second Law of Thermodynamics

#101
By "locally" I think they mean something like "entropy will decrease within what looks like a closed system, and it might not be immediately obvious where else in the universe the corresponding increase in entropy is occurring".

So not actually "free energy", but perhaps it could be used to stage a convincing demo to potential investors.

Re: Argonne researchers posit way to locally circumvent Second Law of Thermodynamics

#102
post #83

The second law of thermodynamics isn't really a fundamental physical law, but rather a promise based on statistics that says "disorder will increase or stay constant in a closed physical system". That said, it's entirely possible for entropy to spontaneously decrease in a closed system, the probability of this happening is just astronomically small for typical macroscopic systems. Example: If you have a system consis…

This argument that the Second Law is a simple logical consequence of basic probability always seems glib to me. Why would probability demand entropy increase as one extrapolates forward in time, but probability not similarly demand entropy increase as one extrapolates backwards in time? In other words, what of Loschmidt's paradox ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loschmidt%27s_paradox )?

Look at every possible two particle collision. To simplify, consider one of the particles as the initial frame of refernce so you now just have impact angle, which is random.

Now play back time by looking at that particle's post collision path as the frame of reference and play time backwards. You will find a bias in input angles for these collisions.

Re: Argonne researchers posit way to locally circumvent Second Law of Thermodynamics

#103
So this article does the Maxwell Demon some injustice. There is a key point about the demon that when he is 'sorting' the particles into two bulbs or rooms, that the gate he is working on is frictionless. In this way, you can can see that there is no energy entering the system, yet the entropy is decreasing. Now, this is where things get interesting to me (please correct me if I'm wrong here). What the demon is adding is information to the system. It decreases entropy. Natural selection is a sort of maxwell demon in it's selection process. I have a theory though that it all evens out. The more complex/evolved the organism, the more entropy the organisms generate themselves.

Re: Argonne researchers posit way to locally circumvent Second Law of Thermodynamics

#104

So this article does the Maxwell Demon some injustice. There is a key point about the demon that when he is 'sorting' the particles into two bulbs or rooms, that the gate he is working on is frictionless. In this way, you can can see that there is no energy entering the system, yet the entropy is decreasing. Now, this is where things get interesting to me (please correct me if I'm wrong here). What the demon is addin…

I think that was Schrodinger's argument in "What is Life": nature seeks to maximise entropy, and life does a very good job of it.

Re: Argonne researchers posit way to locally circumvent Second Law of Thermodynamics

#105

So this article does the Maxwell Demon some injustice. There is a key point about the demon that when he is 'sorting' the particles into two bulbs or rooms, that the gate he is working on is frictionless. In this way, you can can see that there is no energy entering the system, yet the entropy is decreasing. Now, this is where things get interesting to me (please correct me if I'm wrong here). What the demon is addin…

I thought the idea with Maxwell's daemon was that detecting the particles heated it up which made the particle detector less accurate.

Re: Argonne researchers posit way to locally circumvent Second Law of Thermodynamics

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very true, and is the case with many 'laws'. Another example is with centre of masses: Take a hollow sphere, clearly the c.o.m. should be in the very middle, yet an object placed inside has not force whatsoever on it so it isn't attracted to the c.o.m. and the idea breaks down (NB objects outside are attracted predictably). This is because this idea is purely a tool to make calculations of large groups of par…

I don't think that's true. An object would be attracted to the inner surface of the sphere because that's where the mass actually is. The shape you're describing doesn't have a center of mass the way we traditionally think of it.

An object inside the hollow sphere would in fact be attracted to each individual mass-ful particle on the surface of the hollow sphere. But (assuming uniform density on the sphere) the net effect is 0 (it feels no gravitational attraction whatsoever).

The best way to prove this is to compute the gravitational force between your object and any arbitrary particle on the surface, then do the integration over all the particles (across the 3 dimensions).

Re: Argonne researchers posit way to locally circumvent Second Law of Thermodynamics

#108
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The second law of thermodynamics is as fundamental as the uncertainty principle: The former is a result from markov chains and information theory, the latter is a result from fourier analysis of conjugate variables. What would you consider a "fundamental physical law"?

Would you mind sharing a link to a proof of the second law using Markov chains and information theory? I'd like to learn more about this approach. I'm surprised that Markov chains would be involved when the laws of physics are deterministic. The Poincare recurrence theorem has always suggested to me that the second law is not as fundamental as other laws. For a finite system with finite phase space, the state of a sy…

Leff & Rex (both editions) is fun reading.

Re: Argonne researchers posit way to locally circumvent Second Law of Thermodynamics

#109
A quick read of the paper shows it's mostly focused on systems with discrete levels; IIRC there's already plenty of thermodynamic weirdness in those, like "negative temperature" states in the Ising model and so forth. They touch on a continuous system in the final section, but that also includes a system with a finite upper bound to its energy (phonons). Wonder if that's related to the potential for 2nd Law violations.

Re: Argonne researchers posit way to locally circumvent Second Law of Thermodynamics

#110
post #40

The second law of thermodynamics isn't really a fundamental physical law, but rather a promise based on statistics that says "disorder will increase or stay constant in a closed physical system". That said, it's entirely possible for entropy to spontaneously decrease in a closed system, the probability of this happening is just astronomically small for typical macroscopic systems. Example: If you have a system consis…

The second law of thermodynamics is as fundamental as the uncertainty principle: The former is a result from markov chains and information theory, the latter is a result from fourier analysis of conjugate variables. What would you consider a "fundamental physical law"?

A. One that doesn't derive from any other laws.

B. Was around at the beginning or prior to the big bang, as opposed to being the result of conditions early on.

C. What other laws, forces, constants, etc derive from.

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