This year we can end the death penalty in California • Hacker News Board

Re: This year we can end the death penalty in California

#211

Post by Karunamon » Tue, Nov 01, 2016, 10:57 PM UTC

bolocker wrote: post #204

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Miscarriage of justice is something that mostly affects poor people who can't afford good lawyers.

Yes it does and that's not what seems to bother people about the death penalty. It's the act of killing that tugs on their heartstrings. They happily ignore the millions serving decades in prison because they didn't have the basic requirements to lead a good life. The agenda is: 1. End the death penalty. 2. Assume someone else will help innocent people, which they largely won't. 3. Go bad to enjoying blissful ignoran…

Does this entire chain of comments have any purpose or goal other than the same old tired "shame the rich" meme that gets so much play?

PG thinks the death penalty is bad, but PG isn't worried enough about other things you think are worse, therefore PG is wrong? (???)

I honestly don't see where you're going with this other than cheap sniping.

Re: This year we can end the death penalty in California

#212

Post by zeveb » Tue, Nov 01, 2016, 10:57 PM UTC

njharman wrote: post #199

breatheoften wrote: post #174

When I was young, I was certain the death penalty is obviously, trivially an incorrect thing to do. Regardless of what was done, there was no cause for society to choose to take someone's life. Now that I'm older, I worry about the possibility that banning the death penalty is an implicit acceptance of the policy of locking people away for life. According to the article 4% of people who are sentenced to the death pen…

I also was/am certain death penalty is obviously incorrect thing to do. But not cause society has not cause for sanctioned murder (it does). But rather there are no "take backs" with death penalty. We make too many mistakes. Our punishments should take that fact into account

There are no take-backs with imprisonment either: you can't restore lost decades any more than you can restore lost life. You can even, really, compensate for it: prison changes someone's psyche permanently.

If we're worried about punishing innocents, we should address that problem, not proxies for it. If the justice system can't be trusted with execution, then it can't be trusted with imprisonment or even fines.

The other question is if execution of an actually-guilty person is just. I hold that it is, and that not to execute certain criminals is a miscarriage of justice, just as not imprisoning certain criminals is a miscarriage of justice.

Certainly, we should err on the side of the innocent, but at the end of the day we're going to have some people who must be isolated from others, and we're going to have some people who must be killed.

Re: This year we can end the death penalty in California

#213

Post by Karunamon » Tue, Nov 01, 2016, 10:58 PM UTC

orthros wrote: post #206

Karunamon wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only issues that they care about are ones that directly affect their own conscience Is it not a prerequisite that a wrong begin to effect your conscience before you want to do something about it?

It's neither necessary nor sufficient. One doesn't have to be affected by rape to oppose it. I can reflect that there are others whose opinions I value. And thus throw support behind issues that, if left to my own opinion in a vacuum, would be of little concern.

You oppose rape because you know it's wrong. Why do you know it's wrong? Because you know the effect it has on its victims. How does that wrongness translate into a moral stance on your part?

Empathy springs, in part, from conscience.

Re: This year we can end the death penalty in California

#214

Post by thaumasiotes » Tue, Nov 01, 2016, 11:01 PM UTC

zanny wrote: post #185

breatheoften wrote: post #174

When I was young, I was certain the death penalty is obviously, trivially an incorrect thing to do. Regardless of what was done, there was no cause for society to choose to take someone's life. Now that I'm older, I worry about the possibility that banning the death penalty is an implicit acceptance of the policy of locking people away for life. According to the article 4% of people who are sentenced to the death pen…

> A sentence of Life in Prison carried to term is a worse punishment than Execution. This isn't an objective fact. Even some prisoners would certainly prefer to live their life behind bars than lose it completely.

It's also not objectively wrong. I don't think it's even particularly difficult to defend.

Re: This year we can end the death penalty in California

#215

Post by orthros » Tue, Nov 01, 2016, 11:02 PM UTC

Karunamon wrote: post #213

orthros wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's neither necessary nor sufficient. One doesn't have to be affected by rape to oppose it. I can reflect that there are others whose opinions I value. And thus throw support behind issues that, if left to my own opinion in a vacuum, would be of little concern.

You oppose rape because you know it's wrong. Why do you know it's wrong? Because you know the effect it has on its victims. How does that wrongness translate into a moral stance on your part? Empathy springs, in part, from conscience.

Well, I could care less about most environmental regulation - I rather think it's a waste of time and resources - but I am OK with supporting certain laws that are supported by people who I respect, even though I personally could care less.

My hope would be that people would consider their utility vs. the utility of all those who also want something. I've certainly supported modest tax increases because my neighbors were passionately in favor where my own view would be to oppose it.

Is it too much to hope that people will consider broader societal interests and not just their own narrow ones?

Re: This year we can end the death penalty in California

#216

Post by thaumasiotes » Tue, Nov 01, 2016, 11:08 PM UTC

bolocker wrote: post #201

Karunamon wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only issues that they care about are ones that directly affect their own conscience Is it not a prerequisite that a wrong begin to effect your conscience before you want to do something about it?

Yes but if you live in an elite life bubble you'll only care about things that make it through that bubble. Why are so many rich celebrities obsessed with animal rights, the death penalty, and climate change? Because those issues affect them personally in some way. They gnaw at their conscience in a way that the extreme suffering of hundreds of millions of their fellow citizens does not.

I don't think this is right. Climate change is not known for personally affecting anybody. It's more of an ineffable millenarian idea.

Rather, I would say rich celebrities are obsessed with animal rights, the death penalty, and climate change because those ideas are fashionable among rich celebrities, not because they're relevant to rich celebrities for any fundamental (i.e. would still apply if no one knew what the celebrity believed) reason.

Re: This year we can end the death penalty in California

#217

Post by ivm » Tue, Nov 01, 2016, 11:10 PM UTC

jsjohns2 wrote: post #43

jacquesm wrote: post #21

The single best reason why the death penalty should be abolished is because it does not have an 'undo' button. It's bad enough if people get jailed for a long time when they are innocent, it is much worse when they're murdered by the state for crimes they did not commit. Other important work done: http://www.innocenceproject.org/ edit: sad to see this thread flagged off the homepage.

The lack of an "undo" button is not exclusive to the death penalty, many serious forms of punishment are irreversible. Why, in your view, is it much worse for the state to jail an innocent person for a long time (say, their entire adult life) instead of killing them?

You're seriously comparing an unpleasant prison life where you still can think, read, communicate with being killed?

Re: This year we can end the death penalty in California

#218

Post by fauigerzigerk » Tue, Nov 01, 2016, 11:12 PM UTC

bolocker wrote: post #204

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Miscarriage of justice is something that mostly affects poor people who can't afford good lawyers.

Yes it does and that's not what seems to bother people about the death penalty. It's the act of killing that tugs on their heartstrings. They happily ignore the millions serving decades in prison because they didn't have the basic requirements to lead a good life. The agenda is: 1. End the death penalty. 2. Assume someone else will help innocent people, which they largely won't. 3. Go bad to enjoying blissful ignoran…

>Yes it does and that's not what seems to bother people about the death penalty

It does seem to bother Paul Graham as he writes "The police often arrest the wrong person. Defendants' lawyers are often incompetent."

Re: This year we can end the death penalty in California

#219

Post by mikeash » Tue, Nov 01, 2016, 11:14 PM UTC

wolfgke wrote: post #153

mikeash wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm against the death penalty, but I don't think that argument holds up very well. We say it's wrong to kidnap people and hold them against their will, but we put people in prison as punishment. We say it's wrong to steal, but we use fines as punishment. Pretty much by definition, any effective punishment has to be something that's wrong to do to people in general.

> We say it's wrong to kidnap people and hold them against their will, but we put people in prison as punishment. This is rather an arguments against prisons to me. > We say it's wrong to steal, but we use fines as punishment. Objectivists would indeed argue this is an argument against taxes.

Saying all of these things are wrong is indeed consistent, but I don't think many people would agree that it's a good idea to have no way to enforce laws.

Re: This year we can end the death penalty in California

#220

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Nov 01, 2016, 11:16 PM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #100

carapace wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, okay, when you are wrongly convicted and sentenced to life in prison you can request execution. For every other innocent person that's wrongly convicted let's not murder them against their will, eh? (Also, let's fix the jails and prisons !)

Its hard to fix the jails and prisons when widespread poverty still exists in society, for the simple reason that if the prisons offer a better lifestyle than living in the society, more people would choose to go to prison.

[deleted]