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Argonne researchers posit way to locally circumvent Second Law of Thermodynamics

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Re: Argonne researchers posit way to locally circumvent Second Law of Thermodynamics

#81

Post by TeMPOraL »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #74
TeMPOraL wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also done in an excellent though unfinished series of books, The Salvation War[0]. Albeit travel was only a side effect of the real goal there. [0] - http://www.tboverse.us/HPCAFORUM/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=29 - full text of Armageddon and Pantheocide available there; the author decided to abandon the series because someone stole his work to destroy his ability to publish it.

> the author decided to abandon the series because someone stole his work to destroy his ability to publish it. What do you mean? It seems like the author was publishing it for free online already; how would one steal that work and prevent him from publishing?

There are some details scattered around the forum. For starters, one quote from the author[0]:

"The third part never got written. We had a contract signed to publish them and they'd been prepared, copy-edited and put into paperback novel format (I actually have the author's preprints) when a . . . . person . . . . stole the copy and published it himself as a torrent. As a result, the whole deal fell through and nobody will touch an already-published work. So, without any possibility of generating return, I ditched the project. There's no chance of going back to it now."

I once saw a more detailed story about the guy who stole the copy and alleged reasons for doing it, but I can't find it right now.

[0] - http://www.tboverse.us/HPCAFORUM/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=29&t...

Re: Argonne researchers posit way to locally circumvent Second Law of Thermodynamics

#82

Post by rascalpenguin »

ThePhysicist wrote: post #34

The second law of thermodynamics isn't really a fundamental physical law, but rather a promise based on statistics that says "disorder will increase or stay constant in a closed physical system". That said, it's entirely possible for entropy to spontaneously decrease in a closed system, the probability of this happening is just astronomically small for typical macroscopic systems. Example: If you have a system consis…

This is very true, and is the case with many 'laws'. Another example is with centre of masses: Take a hollow sphere, clearly the c.o.m. should be in the very middle, yet an object placed inside has not force whatsoever on it so it isn't attracted to the c.o.m. and the idea breaks down (NB objects outside are attracted predictably).

This is because this idea is purely a tool to make calculations of large groups of particles as easy as one, but it does break down occasionally.

Re: Argonne researchers posit way to locally circumvent Second Law of Thermodynamics

#83

Post by Chinjut »

ThePhysicist wrote: post #34

The second law of thermodynamics isn't really a fundamental physical law, but rather a promise based on statistics that says "disorder will increase or stay constant in a closed physical system". That said, it's entirely possible for entropy to spontaneously decrease in a closed system, the probability of this happening is just astronomically small for typical macroscopic systems. Example: If you have a system consis…

This argument that the Second Law is a simple logical consequence of basic probability always seems glib to me. Why would probability demand entropy increase as one extrapolates forward in time, but probability not similarly demand entropy increase as one extrapolates backwards in time? In other words, what of Loschmidt's paradox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loschmidt%27s_paradox)?

Re: Argonne researchers posit way to locally circumvent Second Law of Thermodynamics

#84

Post by meganvito »

ThePhysicist wrote: post #34

The second law of thermodynamics isn't really a fundamental physical law, but rather a promise based on statistics that says "disorder will increase or stay constant in a closed physical system". That said, it's entirely possible for entropy to spontaneously decrease in a closed system, the probability of this happening is just astronomically small for typical macroscopic systems. Example: If you have a system consis…

I am not sure but have a question, is the barrier a kind of potential implied in the system?

Re: Argonne researchers posit way to locally circumvent Second Law of Thermodynamics

#85

Post by meganvito »

meganvito wrote: post #84
ThePhysicist wrote: post #34

The second law of thermodynamics isn't really a fundamental physical law, but rather a promise based on statistics that says "disorder will increase or stay constant in a closed physical system". That said, it's entirely possible for entropy to spontaneously decrease in a closed system, the probability of this happening is just astronomically small for typical macroscopic systems. Example: If you have a system consis…

I am not sure but have a question, is the barrier a kind of potential implied in the system?

Or say, just the particles are the "insiders" of the "established system", while the barrier not.

Re: Argonne researchers posit way to locally circumvent Second Law of Thermodynamics

#86

Post by [deleted] »

clairity wrote: post #62
ThePhysicist wrote: post #34

The second law of thermodynamics isn't really a fundamental physical law, but rather a promise based on statistics that says "disorder will increase or stay constant in a closed physical system". That said, it's entirely possible for entropy to spontaneously decrease in a closed system, the probability of this happening is just astronomically small for typical macroscopic systems. Example: If you have a system consis…

aren't people (and all living organisms) the quintessential example of a local decrease in entropy that results in greater overall entropy? we are highly ordered groupings of matter but we're really great at churning about the matter and energy around us and we eventually decompose too.

[deleted]

Re: Argonne researchers posit way to locally circumvent Second Law of Thermodynamics

#87

Post by ilyagr »

Chinjut wrote: post #83
ThePhysicist wrote: post #34

The second law of thermodynamics isn't really a fundamental physical law, but rather a promise based on statistics that says "disorder will increase or stay constant in a closed physical system". That said, it's entirely possible for entropy to spontaneously decrease in a closed system, the probability of this happening is just astronomically small for typical macroscopic systems. Example: If you have a system consis…

This argument that the Second Law is a simple logical consequence of basic probability always seems glib to me. Why would probability demand entropy increase as one extrapolates forward in time, but probability not similarly demand entropy increase as one extrapolates backwards in time? In other words, what of Loschmidt's paradox ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loschmidt%27s_paradox )?

There fact that is not a consequence of statistics is that we observe the universe to not be in the state of maximal entropy. That is sufficient to explain asymmetry of time, I think. The mystery is -- why wasn't the universe in a state of maximal entropy at time 0?

Re: Argonne researchers posit way to locally circumvent Second Law of Thermodynamics

#88

Post by davesque »

azurelogic wrote: post #11

Countdown to a sci-fi movie where this idea is only half understood and the "proof of concept" device opens a portal to hell, where we meet the real Maxwell's demon... Now that I've typed this, I want to see it happen.

I feel like Event Horizon was this in one form or another.

Re: Argonne researchers posit way to locally circumvent Second Law of Thermodynamics

#89

Post by nabla9 »

Chinjut wrote: post #83
ThePhysicist wrote: post #34

The second law of thermodynamics isn't really a fundamental physical law, but rather a promise based on statistics that says "disorder will increase or stay constant in a closed physical system". That said, it's entirely possible for entropy to spontaneously decrease in a closed system, the probability of this happening is just astronomically small for typical macroscopic systems. Example: If you have a system consis…

This argument that the Second Law is a simple logical consequence of basic probability always seems glib to me. Why would probability demand entropy increase as one extrapolates forward in time, but probability not similarly demand entropy increase as one extrapolates backwards in time? In other words, what of Loschmidt's paradox ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loschmidt%27s_paradox )?

Universe started from low-entropy state. From the big bang, there is nowhere go but downhill.

In a microscopic level the physics can be time-symmetric (it seems not to be the case, there are T-symmetry violations), but macroscopically universe had higher entropy in the past (cosmological arrow of time)

edit: CPT-symmetry -> T-symmetry .

Re: Argonne researchers posit way to locally circumvent Second Law of Thermodynamics

#90

Post by xenadu02 »

Chinjut wrote: post #83
ThePhysicist wrote: post #34

The second law of thermodynamics isn't really a fundamental physical law, but rather a promise based on statistics that says "disorder will increase or stay constant in a closed physical system". That said, it's entirely possible for entropy to spontaneously decrease in a closed system, the probability of this happening is just astronomically small for typical macroscopic systems. Example: If you have a system consis…

This argument that the Second Law is a simple logical consequence of basic probability always seems glib to me. Why would probability demand entropy increase as one extrapolates forward in time, but probability not similarly demand entropy increase as one extrapolates backwards in time? In other words, what of Loschmidt's paradox ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loschmidt%27s_paradox )?

That's one of the fundamental questions of physics. Hawking's Cambridge lectures audiobook explicitly cover the topic of what's up with the second law being statistical, why the arrow of time is apparently directional, and possible explanations for how you can answer those questions and explain the existence of the universe without requiring a "cause" for the big bang.
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