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This year we can end the death penalty in California

paulgraham.com

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Re: This year we can end the death penalty in California

#71

Post by jacquesm »

justabee wrote: post #65
jacquesm wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that historically it wasn't exactly a perfect record and faking evidence is still quite possible. Killing someone as punishment is simply not fault-proof and the whole idea behind a justice system worthy of the name is that it tries very hard to protect the innocent even if that means some of the guilty will go free or will escape punishment . 'Perfect' evidence rarely is, and even confessions are not always t…

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You actually believe that present cases have 'perfect evidence'?

Preventable deaths are a step or two removed from state inflicted and sanctioned murder.

Re: This year we can end the death penalty in California

#72

Post by scarmig »

justabee wrote: post #32

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Let's consider four collections of people:

A) Guilty people who don't deserve to be put to death.

B) Guilty people who deserve to be put to death.

C) Innocent people who don't deserve to be put to death.

D) Innocent people who deserve to be put to death.

D is empty, so let's just consider A, B, and C.

I agree there are people in B. At the same time, it seems very hard to design a death penalty system that selects any of B without selecting any of A or C.

I'd be very curious to hear what system you propose that is able to limit false positives more for A and C than death penalty abolition would. Unless you're able to, I, and a whole lot of other people, are more willing to support Charles Manson spending the rest of his life in a cell than murdering someone--or dozens or hundreds of people--to satisfy mob rage at the existence of Charles Manson type people.

Re: This year we can end the death penalty in California

#73

Post by noobermin »

silencio wrote: post #6

Don't forget to explicitly vote no on 66 if you are voting yes on 62. If both of them pass, the one with more 'yes' votes will supersede the other.

States should not allow two propositions that contradict each other to be put up for vote simultaneously. They are generally confusing and almost always favor the status quo at the expense of most citizens who don't have time to understand the nuances of each prop/issue/initiative/ammendment.

Re: This year we can end the death penalty in California

#74

Post by AnimalMuppet »

abfan1127 wrote: post #40
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #28

Back in the day, there was a serial killer named Ted Bundy. He killed a number of women, was imprisoned, escaped (twice) and killed at least three more people. That kind of incident makes the problem much more complicated. The typical argument against the death penalty is that sometimes innocent people are executed. And it's true, and it's horrible. But if you don't execute them, then the alternative is that they sho…

4% of innocent put to death vs. Ted's 3? Don't forget the pressure on prosecutors to arrest a serial killer, the chances of pinning it on someone (say a relative) is nonzero. But the chance of undoing a wrongful death penalty is exactly zero.

True. But the chance of undoing a murder is also exactly zero.

4% innocents on death row is a higher number than those killed by escapees, I will agree. But where do you stop? That means at least 4% of those sentenced to life without parole are innocent. Now what? Is leaving them to rot in jail for the rest of their life really that much better than executing them?

Re: This year we can end the death penalty in California

#76

Post by [deleted] »

greglindahl wrote: post #59
MichaelBurge wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose one starting point would be to allow executions in the case where the defendant confesses under oath in a courtroom. Though it might be considered poor policy, since it would discourage people from accepting a plea bargain or confessing.

Not to mention all of the people who give false confessions. False confessions are a common cause of incorrect convictions. https://courses2.cit.cornell.edu/sociallaw/student_projects/...

[deleted]

Re: This year we can end the death penalty in California

#77

Post by jacquesm »

murtnowski wrote: post #67
jacquesm wrote: post #21

The single best reason why the death penalty should be abolished is because it does not have an 'undo' button. It's bad enough if people get jailed for a long time when they are innocent, it is much worse when they're murdered by the state for crimes they did not commit. Other important work done: http://www.innocenceproject.org/ edit: sad to see this thread flagged off the homepage.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/11/13/wrongly-con... While the innocence project has saved many innocent people, it's important to remember that they also are wrong sometimes.

That's the whole point though, justice is a messy business and everybody gets it wrong sometimes.

Re: This year we can end the death penalty in California

#78

Post by jernfrost »

murtnowski wrote: post #7

California already removed the death penalty in 1972 then later reinstated it. This resulted in killers like Charles Mason being relieved from execution and denying many victim's family member from obtaining a measure of justice they wanted. Since being reinstated only 13 people have been executed. And none in the past 10 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Californ...

Why can't people speak in honest terms? What you mean isn't justice, but revenge. Killing a killer will not undo the damage they have done. It will not bring a life back.

If people require revenge for emotionally healing then that is because society has promoted this as justice.

I've never heard of victims desiring death for killers in my home country, but we are not so big on revenge and don't.

The American justice system frequently paints a trial as some sort of game, where the victims family score more points in the competition for every year extra the perpetrator gets in prison.

What about helping victims in meaningful ways instead? They might need mental health care, time of from work, economic support etc. America tend to do little in this regard.

It reminds me of the conservative desire to ban abortion, but unwillingness to actually help a family in a difficult situation giving birth to a child. Instead of making it easier to have a child so people themselves will chose to keep it, instead they want to intimidate parents to keep it threatening with prison and fines.

It is a fundamentally negative and cynical perspective on humanity. I guess that is what you get when people follow a faith which teaches that people are only good because the fear eternal punishment in hell.

Re: This year we can end the death penalty in California

#80

Post by adrianmpc »

MrZongle2 wrote: post #20
kobeya wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's hardly comparable. In 1972 the supreme court decided that the death penalty laws _of the time_ were unconstitutional. The death penalty was almost immediately restored by public vote, with some modifications (switching from hanging to lethal injection, changing the appeals process, etc.) The will of the people is the ultimate mandate in a democracy. In 1972 this mandate was for the death penalty. We'll see nex…

"The will of the people is the ultimate mandate in a democracy." Until a small group of judges say otherwise.

Actually I think the above statement is correct. If the U.S. was a pure democracy, the will of the people would be ultimate. As a constitutional republic, the constitution is ultimate, and in the U.S.'s particular implementation of the republic, the will of the people would mandate a law, and the supreme court would determine if that law comports with the constitution or not.
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