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This year we can end the death penalty in California

paulgraham.com

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Re: This year we can end the death penalty in California

#41

Post by murtnowski »

mikeash wrote: post #18
murtnowski wrote: post #7

California already removed the death penalty in 1972 then later reinstated it. This resulted in killers like Charles Mason being relieved from execution and denying many victim's family member from obtaining a measure of justice they wanted. Since being reinstated only 13 people have been executed. And none in the past 10 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Californ...

Your argument seems to contradict itself. The death penalty is necessary for justice, but at the same time we should be OK with having it because it hasn't been used in a decade?

I'm not making an argument. I'm stating facts. I never said I was OK with it.

Re: This year we can end the death penalty in California

#42

Post by ikeboy »

> In the real world, about 4% of people sentenced to death are innocent. So this is not about whether it's ok to kill killers. This is about whether it's ok to kill innocent people.

>A child could answer that one for you.

http://www2.law.ucla.edu/volokh/guilty.htm

N>25 [0]

[0] Graham, 2016

Re: This year we can end the death penalty in California

#43

Post by jsjohns2 »

jacquesm wrote: post #21

The single best reason why the death penalty should be abolished is because it does not have an 'undo' button. It's bad enough if people get jailed for a long time when they are innocent, it is much worse when they're murdered by the state for crimes they did not commit. Other important work done: http://www.innocenceproject.org/ edit: sad to see this thread flagged off the homepage.

The lack of an "undo" button is not exclusive to the death penalty, many serious forms of punishment are irreversible.

Why, in your view, is it much worse for the state to jail an innocent person for a long time (say, their entire adult life) instead of killing them?

Re: This year we can end the death penalty in California

#44

Post by jernfrost »

The death penalty makes no logical sense. It only appeals to primitive emotions.

Why have a penalty which 1) Can never be reversed if you kill an innocent 2) Cost a lot more than life in prison.

Now why it might be argued that a killer has no right to life, what about those close to the killer? Killers might have a wife, husband, brother, sister, friends, mother and a a father. By killing the killer you inflict hardship on these people. To what purpose? In prison this person can't hurt anybody else, so why unnecessarily reduce the life quality of somebody else.

I see it being argued that the victims families deserve this, but I think that has been learnt and conditioned in society. E.g. in my own country Norway, I hardly ever read about victims and relatives who desire a death penalty or any particularly harsh or painful punishment. I think the desire for revenge is something which is simply promoted by conservative christian groups.

Re: This year we can end the death penalty in California

#45

Post by jacquesm »

justabee wrote: post #32

.

Except that historically it wasn't exactly a perfect record and faking evidence is still quite possible.

Killing someone as punishment is simply not fault-proof and the whole idea behind a justice system worthy of the name is that it tries very hard to protect the innocent even if that means some of the guilty will go free or will escape punishment. 'Perfect' evidence rarely is, and even confessions are not always true.

Re: This year we can end the death penalty in California

#46

Post by DubiousPusher »

abfan1127 wrote: post #34
DubiousPusher wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I oppose the death penalty but by this logic we shouldn't have prison at all because it's wrong to kidnap and hold someone in 6'x10' room against their will.

prison is a place for people who can't be trusted in the general public. We add layers of protections in case we are wrong (juries, appeals). There is no CTRL-Z for the death penalty.

I think you've misunderstood me. My argument is not against prisons. It is against the logic the OP used which I feel is flawed.

Re: This year we can end the death penalty in California

#47

Post by a13n »

jernfrost wrote: post #44

The death penalty makes no logical sense. It only appeals to primitive emotions. Why have a penalty which 1) Can never be reversed if you kill an innocent 2) Cost a lot more than life in prison. Now why it might be argued that a killer has no right to life, what about those close to the killer? Killers might have a wife, husband, brother, sister, friends, mother and a a father. By killing the killer you inflict hards…

The death penalty costs more than life in prison? Source?

Re: This year we can end the death penalty in California

#48

Post by jacquesm »

nf05papsjfVbc wrote: post #30
murtnowski wrote: post #7

California already removed the death penalty in 1972 then later reinstated it. This resulted in killers like Charles Mason being relieved from execution and denying many victim's family member from obtaining a measure of justice they wanted. Since being reinstated only 13 people have been executed. And none in the past 10 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Californ...

> This resulted in killers like Charles Mason being relieved from execution and denying many victim's family member from obtaining a measure of justice they wanted. That qualifies more as 'revenge' than as 'justice'.

The whole idea of a punitive system is broken at the foundation. Jail is not there to remove people from the pool (though in some cases that is a happy side effect), it is there to rehabilitate. In extreme cases this means people will never be released. But executing them makes 'us' just as bad as 'them'.

Re: This year we can end the death penalty in California

#49

Post by Analemma_ »

jsjohns2 wrote: post #43
jacquesm wrote: post #21

The single best reason why the death penalty should be abolished is because it does not have an 'undo' button. It's bad enough if people get jailed for a long time when they are innocent, it is much worse when they're murdered by the state for crimes they did not commit. Other important work done: http://www.innocenceproject.org/ edit: sad to see this thread flagged off the homepage.

The lack of an "undo" button is not exclusive to the death penalty, many serious forms of punishment are irreversible. Why, in your view, is it much worse for the state to jail an innocent person for a long time (say, their entire adult life) instead of killing them?

Because improperly jailed people who are later freed are at least paid some compensation, and at least they can try to live a normal life afterward. It's not great, nor nearly enough, but it's something. None of this is possible with people who are improperly executed.

Don't succumb to the Nirvana fallacy here - for sure, the American justice system has many more serious flaws than just the death penalty, and those won't be fixed right away. But this is a step in the right direction and worth taking even if many other problems still remain.

Re: This year we can end the death penalty in California

#50

Post by jernfrost »

jsjohns2 wrote: post #43
jacquesm wrote: post #21

The single best reason why the death penalty should be abolished is because it does not have an 'undo' button. It's bad enough if people get jailed for a long time when they are innocent, it is much worse when they're murdered by the state for crimes they did not commit. Other important work done: http://www.innocenceproject.org/ edit: sad to see this thread flagged off the homepage.

The lack of an "undo" button is not exclusive to the death penalty, many serious forms of punishment are irreversible. Why, in your view, is it much worse for the state to jail an innocent person for a long time (say, their entire adult life) instead of killing them?

That is bad, but you can compensate an wrongfully jailed person afterwards. But I think it is a fair point, which is why I am also against harsh prison conditions. I think prison should mainly be about rehabilitation and shielding society from the danger of the person. If prison mainly means losing freedom, you aren't necessarily ruined mentally when you get out.
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