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Argonne researchers posit way to locally circumvent Second Law of Thermodynamics

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Re: Argonne researchers posit way to locally circumvent Second Law of Thermodynamics

#41

Countdown to a sci-fi movie where this idea is only half understood and the "proof of concept" device opens a portal to hell, where we meet the real Maxwell's demon... Now that I've typed this, I want to see it happen.

And the portal is in some guys fridge.

Re: Argonne researchers posit way to locally circumvent Second Law of Thermodynamics

#42
post #40

The second law of thermodynamics isn't really a fundamental physical law, but rather a promise based on statistics that says "disorder will increase or stay constant in a closed physical system". That said, it's entirely possible for entropy to spontaneously decrease in a closed system, the probability of this happening is just astronomically small for typical macroscopic systems. Example: If you have a system consis…

The second law of thermodynamics is as fundamental as the uncertainty principle: The former is a result from markov chains and information theory, the latter is a result from fourier analysis of conjugate variables. What would you consider a "fundamental physical law"?

Any law that's not based on a stochastic process, since stochastic processes can be gamed with a little bit of cleverness. If you don't believe me, just look at HFT.

Re: Argonne researchers posit way to locally circumvent Second Law of Thermodynamics

#43

Countdown to a sci-fi movie where this idea is only half understood and the "proof of concept" device opens a portal to hell, where we meet the real Maxwell's demon... Now that I've typed this, I want to see it happen.

And the portal is in some guys fridge.

"There is no Dana, only Zuul."

Re: Argonne researchers posit way to locally circumvent Second Law of Thermodynamics

#44

Countdown to a sci-fi movie where this idea is only half understood and the "proof of concept" device opens a portal to hell, where we meet the real Maxwell's demon... Now that I've typed this, I want to see it happen.

And the portal is in some guys fridge.

Wait is this just turning into Ghost Busters?

Re: Argonne researchers posit way to locally circumvent Second Law of Thermodynamics

#45
post #3

Could have sworn that one of the tricky things about that law was that while it may appear that you are decreasing entropy locally, you are just increasing it somewhere else, thus entropy still increased in aggregate.

Imagine location A experiences an entropy decrease Y. To compensate, location B experiences an entropy increase >Y, and thus the 2nd law of thermodynamics is upheld. Under typical conditions, those two locations must be directly connected. The biosphere of the Earth, which is a local decrease in entropy, receives insolation directly from the sun, and radiates directly into space.

The impression I get from the article is that the newsworthy idea here is that those two locations might not need to be directly connected. This would permit what looks like a perpetual motion machine. But overall the 2nd law would still hold because entropy is increasing somewhere.

Note: I'm not a physicist so don't take my word for this. Just conveying what I think I read.

Re: Argonne researchers posit way to locally circumvent Second Law of Thermodynamics

#48
There is a free PDF on the nature site, but the paper is also available on arxiv (https://arxiv.org/abs/1407.4437), the first version on the arxiv dates back to 2014. It's strange, but I find the arxiv version much more readable in terms of typesetting than the polished version in nature. Also there are additional appendices in the arxiv version.

Re: Argonne researchers posit way to locally circumvent Second Law of Thermodynamics

#49
This article seems a little light on details, and the original paper (not behind a paywall!) is quite dense, but some of my favorite paper's on Maxwell's demon are:

http://www2.pitt.edu/~jdnorton/papers/ExorcistXIV/Exorcist1....

http://www2.pitt.edu/~jdnorton/papers/ExorcistXIV/Exorcist2....

...and to ease into things, an article by one of the authors:

"The Simplest Exorcism of Maxwell's Demon -- No Information Needed"

https://web.archive.org/web/20140309110028/http://www.pitt.e...

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