My toaster has to be certified that it meets certain minimum safety standards. It really seems that IoT and safety critical software/firmware should be required to pass a similar (bare minimum) certification.
Toaster is required to pass safety standards because of the there is strong economic incentive (UL requirements) to do it. Without UL, it can't get on the shelf on any stores in US. There are no such thing and UL security requirements for IOT device. Time for such regulation? But "internet + regulation" normally raise a lot of objections internally from the IT industry. If someone (MSFT) proposes secure boot are requ…
The Mirai Botnet Is Proof the Security Industry Is Broken
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Re: The Mirai Botnet Is Proof the Security Industry Is Broken
#62The simple fact is that there are very limited economic incentives for a company in the IoT space to spend money on security, and as a result they don't.
It's not easy for an ordinary consumer to differentiate between a company who just says "security is our top priority" and one who puts meaningful effort behind that (e.g. there is a strong market for lemons here).
Also there's no effective regulation which could substitute for that information. In other markets (property, consumer goods, food and drink) we have safety regulations as it was recognised that consumers can't effectively differentiate. In IoT and other areas of IT this doesn't exist, so there's nothing to stop insecure devices being sold.
As to the "security industry" well there have been enough practitioners warning about this, to limited effect. Realistically there's a limited amount that can be done without some form of top-down intervention.
Re: The Mirai Botnet Is Proof the Security Industry Is Broken
#63Normal folk want to consume new gadgets because that's the culture we have. So it's a race to put new gadgets with new features in front of people. Sure, as a customer I could insist on my manufacturer having taken security seriously and having their products thoroughly tested and reviewed and hardened and patchable and all that good stuff, but then I'm going to have to pay more money for my gadget than my buddy here who just wants to be able to flush his toilet from his smartphone.
There is literally no consequence for manufacturers of poor quality products where the impact isn't directly impacting their own consumers, and so there's no market force that is going to address this.
When viewed this way, it's a classic case of where we need government/legislature involvement.
Re: The Mirai Botnet Is Proof the Security Industry Is Broken
#64Maybe we need liability for software vendors? With exemption for those who provide full source code.
Re: The Mirai Botnet Is Proof the Security Industry Is Broken
#65I wish more people would talk about the economics of why netsec is such a garbage industry. It's a few honest people screaming to be heard above the din of snake-oil salesmen, but there's an economic reason that goes beyond "dumb users, incompetent programmers and CTOs who just look and speeds and feeds". The problem is there's weak correlation, or at least very difficult-to-see correlation, between the amount of eff…
That's a great point regarding the economics of why IoT manufacturers don't invest all that much on security. Here's another one. It's an externality. Botnet attacks don't harm the IoT manufacturers. They don't even harm the IoT products or their users. They harm completely innocent bystanders like DNS/github. What possible incentive do IoT manufacturers have to invest money on initiatives that bring no benefits to t…
If your toaster attacks Dyn, that's an indirect failure. But if your lights decide to shut off permanently because some kid thought it would be funny, you're going to throw them away and buy some dumb lightbulbs.
Short of regulation or bribery, I can only hope that we'll see progress after some IoT products are directly attacked instead of repurposed into botnets.
Re: The Mirai Botnet Is Proof the Security Industry Is Broken
#66Maybe we need liability for software vendors? With exemption for those who provide full source code.
That's a common suggestion, but since no-one knows how to make completely secure systems yet, I don't think it's that simple.
If you're talking about a general presumption that anyone selling software that has a security vulnerability becomes liable for any consequential losses, then it seems likely to result in only large businesses with the war chest to fight a liability action being able to make any sort of remotely risky software and/or in a new insurance industry popping up so that the problem reduces to money and the cost is ultimately passed on to software users in higher prices. While there might be some pressure to improve security as a result, the negative side effects could be far worse for the software industry as a whole.
The next logical step is some sort of penalty for gross negligence or a repeated pattern of failures, where a supplier making reasonable efforts and following generally good security practices isn't at risk of being sent under instantly because of some new type of 0-day that no-one had seen before. But then you have to figure out what constitutes good practice and paying due care and attention, and that in itself is not an easy issue.
With exemption for those who provide full source code.
I don't see why that should make any difference. Having access to a huge amount of source code is only a benefit for security if you have the skill and resources to perform a detailed audit of your own, and if it's practical to spend that kind of time and money, and if you also have the authority to do something useful about any vulnerabilities you do find.
If someone is giving software away for free as a kind gesture, that's one thing, but I don't see why anyone supplying software on a commercial basis should get out of jail free on security just because they provided source code access. The FOSS world provides ample evidence that many eyes do not, in fact, make all bugs shallow.
Re: The Mirai Botnet Is Proof the Security Industry Is Broken
#67There is no cure for weak passwords.
That can be fixed by requiring users to set a unique password on setup, or shipping each device with a different password. This exact problem occurred in the UK where ADSL router manufacturers used to ship the same wireless WEP/WPA key on all devices, many got compromised, and now they ship with a unique key per device.
Re: The Mirai Botnet Is Proof the Security Industry Is Broken
#681) A consortium of manufacturers of IoT devices banding together and signing an "autopatch" or "autohack" agreement. This would be an open source, public hack-and-patch society that freezes out any manufacturers that don't agree to it. All customers would simply sign in their EULA that their devices are authorized to be "patched" by any means necessary if found to be insecure by the auto-hackers.
2) As botnets at the Mirai scale are now a matter of national security, make the NSA do its job and do roughly what is outlined in 1. Controversial, sure, but you can be damn sure that they already know about these unpatched devices and how to exploit them.
Re: The Mirai Botnet Is Proof the Security Industry Is Broken
#69It's actually proof that internet architecture in general is broken. Well, not broken; it was broken, and then healed in a weird way so there's extra cartilage sticking out causing annoyances and won't move as easily anymore. The security industry has absolutely nothing to do with the existence of a botnet that can take down massive internet infrastructure. The security industry just puts bandaids on shitty products.…
I'm old enough to remember when UK modems had to be "BABT approved", adding considerably to the price. See (1993) https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/uk.telecom/6j1bVHcq1...
Re: The Mirai Botnet Is Proof the Security Industry Is Broken
#70I think it's erroneous to blame the security industry wholesale, tempting as it may be. Let's set blame aside for now. What caused this botnet? - The tendency of IoT/smart-device vendors to eschew engineering discipline - The tendency of _all_ companies to eschew security as an optional extra rather than the cost of admittance to the marketplace - The historical tendency of big companies /not/ being burned to the gro…
> Solving the core problems is good for society, but society doesn't reward this behavior. I'd like to think that we can solve collective action problems like this as a society and be rewarded for it. We have to figure out how to fight this problem the way we fought smallpox and polio.