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The Cancelled Comma One Would Have Embarrassed the Car Industry

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Re: The Cancelled Comma One Would Have Embarrassed the Car Industry

#71

Post by hash-set »

prawn wrote: post #64
LeanderK wrote: post #13

> Hotz's initial tweets suggested his move was in response to an inquiry from NHTSA, stating that he "would much rather spend life building amazing tech than dealing with regulators and lawyers," well, this is not some stupid web-app that can't harm anyone even if it tried (except from maybe overheating your smartphone). This can kill people, i can't seriously buy dangerous stuff from somebody that says something lik…

Even ignoring the safety aspect, people buying any remotely major product will have the expectation that it will ideally be supported for some time to come. e.g., buy a car and have the manufacturer around for long enough to help out with servicing, parts, etc.

Saturn, Saab...

Re: The Cancelled Comma One Would Have Embarrassed the Car Industry

#72

Post by hash-set »

dilemma wrote: post #57
stale2002 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe they'd rather just start selling their product immediately in China?

China has the same level of regulation as other industrialized countries. If it doesn't pass in the US it won't pass in China either.

Mexico?

Re: The Cancelled Comma One Would Have Embarrassed the Car Industry

#73

Post by hash-set »

taneq wrote: post #51
aresant wrote: post #45

"[comma.ai} was functionally superior and theoretically safer than the ten legacy manufacturer systems" A journalist on record saying "theoretically safer" literally makes my hair stand up on end.

Even better, "The system worked, sometimes better than everything on the market." Oh boy, I just gotta have a self-driving system for my car that can sometimes work really well!

80% of the time it worked every time.

Re: The Cancelled Comma One Would Have Embarrassed the Car Industry

#74

Post by emp_zealoth »

Fricken wrote: post #55
ethanbond wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, you know, the gigantic field of possibilities between those two things: it works a little bit under some conditions. Fortunately for us and unfortunately for Hotz's ego, regulators look down upon things that work a little bit under some conditions when they also happen to control two ton metal cages capable of traveling at 120mph. > it's [the] NHTSA that remains behind the curve in evaluating the myriad different…

The one fatality with Autopilot happened because the system worked too well, the driver came to trust it when he shouldn't have. The shittier the Comma one is, the more in-the-loop the human has to be, and risk compensation becomes less of a factor.

What in the fucking hell are you talking about?

A system that is seemingly half blind (repeatedly crashes into vehicles that only partially obstruct the lane), decapitates a guy, crashes another one into a fucking post

It didn't work too well.

It pretended to work too well and gotten people killed. There is a reason MobileEye walked away from Tesla

They are being rather cavalier with their attitude to safety, apparently. (Apparently the falcon wing doors can go nom nom on you if you are not careful too - sure the guys are laughing their asses off, but it's not a good design)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdPPp3hoGQ8

EDIT: OR, EVEN BETTER: http://jalopnik.com/did-tesla-quietly-remove-a-safety-featur...

Re: The Cancelled Comma One Would Have Embarrassed the Car Industry

#75

Post by throwaway4job »

stale2002 wrote: post #50
forgottenpass wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3M+ in investment and Atlas over here would rather shrug than hire a lawyer and someone to put together quality management systems? Bulllllllshiiiiit.

Or maybe they'd rather just start selling their product immediately in China?

No, there's a reason he said new products and markets. Because his existing product does not work. And it will not work as designed.

Hotz's product vision was naive and doomed to failure. But instead of being man enough to admit that, he blamed other people and ran away. It's pathetic.

Re: The Cancelled Comma One Would Have Embarrassed the Car Industry

#76

Post by TeMPOraL »

ontoillogical wrote: post #39

And that's how you get to walk away with your dignity intact when you can't ship a working product on your self-inflicted insane timeline.

With your dignity intact? The guy basically lost all his credibility with this action.

Walking away with dignity intact would be replying to NHTSA, "Dear Government, we've found out we are unable to provide the information you asked for because the product is nowhere near mature enough. Therefore we are officially abandoning all public tests and sales effort, and are going back to the drawing board until such time that we are able to get back to you with the answers you requested."

Re: The Cancelled Comma One Would Have Embarrassed the Car Industry

#77

Post by Pica_soO »

agumonkey wrote: post #54
Pica_soO wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually all my money was on google, i expected them to drive into the scrapfield, after the car companys and Tesla pushed each other into a early market situation and upped Legislation, kicking themselves out of the market, with a carnaggedon. But they backed out, because their managers want the chicken to exist before the egg. So, why not bet on the outsider?

I liked Google's approach a lot. It seemed justly dimensioned, came out of Thrun DARPA success, had years and millions of miles of testing. What's not to love. Also G has the lever to accelerate and change tech if their old approach is obsolete. Sad they went silent since a year or so. I said it in other place, including HN, I don't consider Hotz an outsider, but mostly glorified hacker (his attitude with institution…

Actually, that is a very humanistic point of view. There are third-world countrys where a margin of life-loss is considered "acceptable".

And sorry, but Teslas approach, seems to be a similar hacky "Wing-it with PR-Guns blazing".

Re: The Cancelled Comma One Would Have Embarrassed the Car Industry

#78

Post by vvanders »

agildehaus wrote: post #68
bertiewhykovich wrote: post #59

What this article tries its damnedest to elide is the narrative-wrecking fact that Holtz, confronted with a standard request to demonstrate that his product meets regulatory standards, took his ball and went home. /Exactly/ why he threw a tantrum is anyone's guess -- but there doesn't seem to be any real good possibility. Either his product couldn't meet standards and this is an attempt to obfuscate that inconvenient…

There were major problems with every demo I saw of the product. In one video, the camera lost tracking of the road due to lighting conditions not being favorable for contrast. In another, Hotz seemed far too amazed that the car properly took a gentle bend in the highway. Confidence is not something I would assign to his product. Or any product that is a camera-only lane-follower. That Holtz caves at the slightest tho…

Yup, can't agree more. If you're in the space you had to know these type of questions were coming and you'd have to deal with it.

There's a long road from a working prototype to a shipping product.

Re: The Cancelled Comma One Would Have Embarrassed the Car Industry

#79

Post by ethanbond »

Fricken wrote: post #55
ethanbond wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, you know, the gigantic field of possibilities between those two things: it works a little bit under some conditions. Fortunately for us and unfortunately for Hotz's ego, regulators look down upon things that work a little bit under some conditions when they also happen to control two ton metal cages capable of traveling at 120mph. > it's [the] NHTSA that remains behind the curve in evaluating the myriad different…

The one fatality with Autopilot happened because the system worked too well, the driver came to trust it when he shouldn't have. The shittier the Comma one is, the more in-the-loop the human has to be, and risk compensation becomes less of a factor.

You think maybe part of why there haven't been more numerous malfunctions might be because of rigorous NHSTA testing of various parts of the automobile?

Also just because a person on birth control gets pregnant doesn't mean we start pushing pills with unknown success rates in order to get people to use condoms.

Re: The Cancelled Comma One Would Have Embarrassed the Car Industry

#80

Post by sorenjan »

agumonkey wrote: post #47
noonespecial wrote: post #2

There's 2 possible reasons. 1) It really is near vaporware just being shown off in perfect conditions to seem exceptional. 2) It actually does work that much better with only $1000 worth of hardware and responding would give away the secret sauce. I don't give much credit to the theory that they didn't see this coming and were caught flat-footed by the sudden requirements. Oh and: Final speculation: there’s a reason…

I have yet to see the simplest proof that comma ai work is just a cute trained NN over a camera, piped to basic controls, with some potential creative ideas (in a conf, hotz mentioned working on time based depth inference instead of the traditional stereo camera setup). I'm biased for conservative companies, I have no idea what they're doing and how much resources. Maybe they're doing something at the same level. I b…

> in a conf, hotz mentioned working on time based depth inference instead of the traditional stereo camera setup

This sounds like structure from motion, SfM, which isn't new at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structure_from_motion

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