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Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

news.ycombinator.com

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Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#131

Post by Razengan »

> Should there not be a software solution that lets you select which network/s the phone should connect to?

Apple have begun a limited initiative towards just that: http://www.apple.com/ipad/apple-sim/

Telephone and internet connectivity should really be like electric supply and other utilities. We should be able to connect wherever we are and pay as-we-go through our device.

As an interesting aside, here's look at just how complex SIMs are: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12674846

They are practically equal to the computers we were using 30 years ago!

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#132

Post by zamalek »

derefr wrote: post #129
gcb0 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

/me puts on tinfoil hat the sim card has one important difference. It lives in a device that provides it with 24/7 battery and radio access. That is really worrisome when you think about. A tiny computer running applications you have no idea/access. powered 24/7. Always with you. With access to battery, network, mic, etc. And the other side of the network that could monitor it's traffic for malicious actions is owned…

> powered 24/7 Is it? When you turn on "airplane mode" on a phone, is there a reason for the SIM to still be receiving power at that point?

> Is it?

Easy to test: add a SIM pin, turn on airplane mode and reboot your phone.

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#133

Post by RyJones »

JoachimSchipper wrote: post #6

The SIM card is a smart card, i.e. a secure piece of hardware, that protects the telephone network from the subscriber - most importantly, it ensures that the network has someone to bill. In most western countries, SIMs do little else; however, they are full application platforms, allowing stuff like Kenya's mobile payment network https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Pesa . For what it's worth, you really don't want to ha…

Here is a great video[0] with an exploration of using SIMs for a (very) micro telco, including a discussion of the APIs available

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-nxemBCcmU

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#134

Post by agumonkey »

JoachimSchipper wrote: post #6

The SIM card is a smart card, i.e. a secure piece of hardware, that protects the telephone network from the subscriber - most importantly, it ensures that the network has someone to bill. In most western countries, SIMs do little else; however, they are full application platforms, allowing stuff like Kenya's mobile payment network https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Pesa . For what it's worth, you really don't want to ha…

I recently read the Wikipedia pages for health cards, and was surprised that these are demi-computers (by that I mean, no IO, no power). Standard chips are 4MHz >8bits these days (with added crypto etc). A Gameboy Air.

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#136

Post by Sanddancer »

mherrmann wrote: post #49
user5994461 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because username and password is a disaster for security. It's sole purpose is let ANY guy ANY where on the planet connect to your account. SIM cards are cryptographic hardware tokens. They are much more secure than passwords. In fact, they do need a password as well on top of the hardware token, that's the 'PIN code' you have to enter when you (re)boot your phone.

Most of the internet runs on usernames/passwords. I understand that a hardware token (with a PIN) is more secure. But is it worth the added complexity?

I'd very much argue that a hardware token is more secure, and less complex, especially with multiple devices. It's a lot easier to remember where you put your smart card than to need to get a password store somewhere shareable, to secure that, to remember to put passwords in the store, etc.

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#137

Post by JoshTriplett »

SIM cards make it easy to change phones, by moving the SIM card to a new phone. CDMA phones make this hard, and sometimes impossible. They also make it a little easier to change carriers, since you can just switch the SIM card. It'd be even easier to switch if phones had that functionality built-in, so you could sign up for a new carrier and switch entirely via the phone, but in that case I think you'd find that carriers frequently broke that functionality.

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#138

Post by Sanddancer »

Strom wrote: post #55
mherrmann wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have hundreds of usernames and passwords for various web sites and don't see a problem in having one more(?)

If you use actual strong passwords then you are an outlier. Most people use basic words like "password" as shown by every password dump in history. Indeed, most people would use the very same weak password they use for their e-mail for their mobile, and this would reduce protection against spoofing versus continuing to use the SIM system. What we need is a SIM-type system on the web as well, not to bring the broken w…

Client TLS certificates have been a thing since forever, but browser makers keep it a pain in the ass, and too many "modern" software stacks don't even consider leveraging the decades of infrastructure that would make their job easier. Add to the fact that identity aggregators want to be producers, but rarely allow themselves to be consumers and we get stuck in the hell that is identity online.

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#139

Post by idle_zealot »

markgamache1 wrote: post #135

Why is asking a forum and not just googling still a thing???

Because when you ask a forum you're likely to spark a conversation and gain insight you may not have otherwise. Also, when others are curious in the future, when they search Google the discussion will be in the results, allowing readers in the future to get a decent understanding of the answer and some related concepts.

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#140

Post by umurkontaci »

gcb0 wrote: post #124
userbinator wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The SIM card is a smart card If you have a credit/debit card with a chip, look at the arrangement of the contacts and compare to a SIM card. It's essentially the same standard (ISO 7816) at the lower layers, but with different application-layer protocols on top. Also, as a matter of being the only device in posession of the subscriber but arguably owned by the telco, I'd definitely prefer it to be a removable piece w…

/me puts on tinfoil hat the sim card has one important difference. It lives in a device that provides it with 24/7 battery and radio access. That is really worrisome when you think about. A tiny computer running applications you have no idea/access. powered 24/7. Always with you. With access to battery, network, mic, etc. And the other side of the network that could monitor it's traffic for malicious actions is owned…

It's no different than having no SIM, if your phone wants to spy on you, it doesn't need a SIM card. It's the phone that transceives the signals, and it can do so without a SIM card. SIM card authenticates you to the network, but you control the device and the network around the device, there's no need for a SIM card.
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