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Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

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Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#251
post #71

Wonderful talk. One thing he called for was a wealth tax, which is something that makes complete sense but is going to be very unpopular. On the otherhand, he also calls for progressive income taxes (something that is reported by the media and an easier pill to swallow) - in my country, Canada, progressive income taxes are not the answer IMHO. We didn't have as much inequality for education (i.e. lots of decent Unive…

Unaffordable housing markets are created by 3 things usually: 1. Strong NIMBY anti-development policies. 2. Low property taxes. 3. Foreign money using housing as a bank account. You see it in vancouver, london, SF, NYC and you'll probably find those ingredients in other places too. To counteract it you need: Federal legislation that prevents any city or province from restricting dense multi-family development of up t…

Housing costs are actually not unaffordable in Vancouver:

https://homefreesociology.wordpress.com/2016/06/08/quickest-...

Notice how Vancouver is in the bottom of the middle of the pack in rent to income ratios.

Property taxes and foreign money don't affect rental rates. Ony NIMBYism does.

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#252
post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laws against stealing are one of the basic laws of society. Property is not extremely complicated. If I take your laptop without your consent, that's a violation of your rights. If you have 20 laptops, that doesn't change that fact. If I have 99 other people that agree that I should be able to take your laptop, that still doesn't change that fact.

>Property is not extremely complicated. Yes it is. How do you determine it's my laptop? How do you determine I didn't give consent? What about if I wrote a contract to lend you my laptop and we didn't specify a certain edge case? What about if you're using a hose in your garden and you accidentally damage my laptop next door? What about if I sell you the laptop and it breaks a few days later? There are answers to all…

>How do you determine it's my laptop? How do you determine I didn't give consent?

How do we determine that you assaulted me? It's your word against mine. We're not talking about the complexity of determining the true account of events, which is obviously great. We're talking about the complexity of establishing what property rights are. It's not complicated at all.

>What about if I wrote a contract to lend you my laptop and we didn't specify a certain edge case?

Then common law, which springs from the first principles of personal and property rights, would preside.

We'd have a similarly difficult time determining if a hockey fight classifies as assault. Or if in a traffic altercation, you stepping out of your car and aggressively approaching me justified my preemptive (or aggressive?) first punch.

>There are answers to all these questions, but we need a complicated system of laws to determine them.

The system of laws being complicated does not mean that it is not generally straightforward to determine what a person has property rights to. The complexity comes from the edge cases, but most cases are not edge cases.

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#253
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Property is not extremely complicated. Yes it is. How do you determine it's my laptop? How do you determine I didn't give consent? What about if I wrote a contract to lend you my laptop and we didn't specify a certain edge case? What about if you're using a hose in your garden and you accidentally damage my laptop next door? What about if I sell you the laptop and it breaks a few days later? There are answers to all…

>How do you determine it's my laptop? How do you determine I didn't give consent? How do we determine that you assaulted me? It's your word against mine. We're not talking about the complexity of determining the true account of events, which is obviously great. We're talking about the complexity of establishing what property rights are. It's not complicated at all. >What about if I wrote a contract to lend you my lap…

>We're talking about the complexity of establishing what property rights are. It's not complicated at all.

Okay so what are they? What makes your claim to own the things you own correct and someone else's invalid?

Or more generally, how do you go from a world with no property rights, to one where everything has a defined owner, in a way that is simple and obviously fair?

Again, there are answers to these questions, but they are complicated and even within libertarian thought, people disagree about them.

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#254
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He supports heavy taxes on private property. Tax laws are based on violence I didn't get the same impression watching the video. Do you have any references? As far as Law and Violence is concerned, I agree voilence to some degree may be involved. So what is your alternative? No Law every man/group for himself? There is no such thing as No Law. Void will ne replaced with Natural Law in which powerful eliminates weak…

>Do you have any references? http://taxfoundation.org/article/what-would-piketty-s-80-per... >As far as Law and Violence is concerned, I agree voilence to some degree may be involved. So what is your alternative? No Law every man/group for himself? The violence of Law should be applied exclusively against those who violate the human rights of others. It should not be used to take property from one group to give to an…

Quoting from the article you are referring to:

> He recommends a global wealth tax and, for the United States, top income tax rates of 80 percent on income above $500,000 or $1 million to combat inequality and 50 or 60 percent on income above about $200,000 to combat inequality and grow the government.

First of all I haven't read the book yet so can't comment on the numbers.This limit can very well be a million or a few millions. He is arguing is that effective tax rate on multinational companies is lower than small and medium scale businesses. This isn't good for capitalism. In fact this will just hasten the process towards concentration of resources in the hands of few organization or groups. Will it look like a capitalist society anymore when a few big groups own everything and others compete for minimum wages?

> The violence of Law should be applied exclusively against those who violate the human rights of others. It should not be used to take property from one group to give to another.

You are circumventing the basic question. From where property came from? Did individual said "Let there be property" and property came into existence?

No, property is a result of individual's or an organized group's utilization of natural or human resources. Piketty is not arguing to take it away with force in communist fashion. All he is arguing is that tax should increase with income which is contrary to what is happening on the ground nowadays[1][2].

> I grab some clay, and create a nice figurine. You give me some sea shells in exchange for it. No one has a right to a share of my sea shells.

We are discussing taxation of higher income not some petty transaction between individual player. However, if we take your argument to its logical conclusion and imagine a billion dollar Multi-National making the same argument that I am just bartering few thousand tonnes of clay with few hundred tonnes of seashell so we aren't responsible for soil erosion and extinction of species.

Only reason not to tax large groups was that they generate employment and moves the society forward by investing money into research. This is not true research [3] as well as jobs[4].

[1] http://www.cnbc.com/2015/03/10/why-we-need-a-global-wealth-t...

[2] http://money.cnn.com/2013/03/04/news/economy/buffett-secreta...

[3] https://www.ted.com/talks/mariana_mazzucato_government_inves...

[4] http://www.truthfulpolitics.com/http:/truthfulpolitics.com/c...

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#255
post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, to the extent that Communism can be considered evil, it is because it leads to terrible outcomes. You can argue that the outcomes are a consequence of not enforcing a property system, but it's still the outcomes themselves which are bad.

The advocacy of violating human rights, in denying people a right to engage in voluntary economic interactions, and to the property they earn in said interactions, is also evil.

Where "violating human rights" apparently means "not using government violence to enforce exclusive control of resources by individuals".

I'm not against capitalism as an economic system, but I find this moralising of its means rather than its end to be very distasteful.

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#256
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How do you determine it's my laptop? How do you determine I didn't give consent? How do we determine that you assaulted me? It's your word against mine. We're not talking about the complexity of determining the true account of events, which is obviously great. We're talking about the complexity of establishing what property rights are. It's not complicated at all. >What about if I wrote a contract to lend you my lap…

>We're talking about the complexity of establishing what property rights are. It's not complicated at all. Okay so what are they? What makes your claim to own the things you own correct and someone else's invalid? Or more generally, how do you go from a world with no property rights, to one where everything has a defined owner, in a way that is simple and obviously fair? Again, there are answers to these questions, b…

>What makes your claim to own the things you own correct and someone else's invalid?

The fact that I made it, or acquired it from someone else through trade.

>Or more generally, how do you go from a world with no property rights, to one where everything has a defined owner, in a way that is simple and obviously fair?

The homestead principle is based on the notion that if something is unclaimed, and someone adds value to it, they should be able to enjoy the full benefit of that value-added thing.

The only 'artificial' private property is scarce natural resources, most importantly land, and that is because much if not most of its value comes from its natural form, rather than anything added to it by its original homesteader, and it is this class of property which society has a moral right to create rules/taxes on.

With respect to this latter class of property, once the rules on its use have been established (say a rule asserting that a property title owner must pay a rent equal to 1% of the value of their land to the government each year) anything the title owner earns in accordance with the rules (e.g. anything they earn on top of the 1% tax) is theirs by right.

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#257
post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The advocacy of violating human rights, in denying people a right to engage in voluntary economic interactions, and to the property they earn in said interactions, is also evil.

Where "violating human rights" apparently means "not using government violence to enforce exclusive control of resources by individuals". I'm not against capitalism as an economic system, but I find this moralising of its means rather than its end to be very distasteful.

First of all, without the principle, human economic activity would simply be impossible. In fact, it is the most central principle of all human rights. Without homesteading, we cannot own our own bodies. Appropriation of natural resources is the process by which we assert a right over the bodily material that food (originally unclaimed natural resources) turns into.

Second, if the government merely stopped protecting private property from aggressive seizure, that would be one thing. But communism advocates the government being the primary instrument by which people aggressively prevent others from existing as independent economic agents (homesteading natural resources).

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#258
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A tax break is not government intervention.. And no, it hasn't been all 'right-wing' intervention, though I'd certainly agree that there has been a lot of that. There's been a ton of new 'left-wing' intervention in the form of growing welfare programs and authoritarian prohibitions on free association a la affirmative action, anti-private-discrimination laws, etc.

Hoo boy. Can't wait for the Rothbardian argument from you about why a marketplace for infants is a good idea. Also love the revisionist history that welfare has in any way grown. It hasn't, in fact it's been scaled back dramatically since the 90s, and the consequences have been horrendous: http://www.demos.org/blog/2/12/16/welfare-reform-was-quite-b...

> Also love the revisionist history that welfare has in any way grown. It hasn't, in fact it's been scaled back dramatically since the 90s, and the consequences have been horrendous:

You can see this is action in UK right now with respect to NHS spending.

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#259
post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We're talking about the complexity of establishing what property rights are. It's not complicated at all. Okay so what are they? What makes your claim to own the things you own correct and someone else's invalid? Or more generally, how do you go from a world with no property rights, to one where everything has a defined owner, in a way that is simple and obviously fair? Again, there are answers to these questions, b…

>What makes your claim to own the things you own correct and someone else's invalid? The fact that I made it, or acquired it from someone else through trade. >Or more generally, how do you go from a world with no property rights, to one where everything has a defined owner, in a way that is simple and obviously fair? The homestead principle is based on the notion that if something is unclaimed, and someone adds value…

And sure, these are reasonable answers, but they're starting to show complexity, and people aren't necessarily going to agree that they're obviously fair.

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#260
post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What makes your claim to own the things you own correct and someone else's invalid? The fact that I made it, or acquired it from someone else through trade. >Or more generally, how do you go from a world with no property rights, to one where everything has a defined owner, in a way that is simple and obviously fair? The homestead principle is based on the notion that if something is unclaimed, and someone adds value…

And sure, these are reasonable answers, but they're starting to show complexity, and people aren't necessarily going to agree that they're obviously fair.

Society is complex, and trying to explain a principle and its application in all possible permutations will require an indepth explanation, but the overall concept is coherent and straightforward. I wouldn't call it ambiguous.

Regarding people disagreeing: people also didn't agree that ending ritual sacrifice and slavery were fair, but I don't believe many reasonable people would disagree on the general outlines of what private property is if the discussion is permitted to progress far enough.

I believe counter-notions are mostly a result of demagoguery and would dissipate in the face of reasoned inquiry.

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