Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#191

Post by om2 » Sun, Oct 30, 2016, 7:36 AM UTC

barrkel wrote: post #88

om2 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing that always puzzles me about r > g is that it's comparing a first derivative to a second derivative. How can this be meaningful? To explain further, r is return on investment, which approximately means rate of growth of wealth of capital. That is, it is a the first derivative of a stock, or equivalently a flow. g is the rate of growth of income, where income itself is a flow. So it's the second derivative o…

It's a shorthand for talking about how the ownership of everything (both current stocks and claims on future production) is being distributed between workers and capitalists. When r > g, the share of ownership of capital (by growth in capital) is growing faster than the continuous stream of claims on future production (which is what money is, and what makes up income). If capital is liquid, it can be converted into a…

That doesn't really make sense. r isn't a growth rate of the share of ownership on capital. It's a return on capital, i.e. the growth rate of capital. r implies nothing about the change in total value of capital assets. Total capital assets could double or halve and r wouldn't have to change. in fact, under most circumstances, the value of capital assets and the return on capital move in opposite directions.

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#192

Post by ignasl » Sun, Oct 30, 2016, 7:53 AM UTC

jernfrost wrote: post #76

I wish more people could have Thomas Piketty's balanced view on capitalism. Too often it is treated as some sort of game where you have to pick sides whether you are for or against capitalism. Especially in America there seems to be a kneejerk reaction to any calls for regulations or moderations of the effects of the free market. Usually it is dismissed without further discussion with "look what happened in the east…

"capitalism capitalism capitalism" - Absolutely all countries are capitalistic including USSR and North Korea. The only difference is who controls the capital. To be for or against capitalism is the same as to be for or against the wind. Ironically in free market capitalism capital actually belongs to people and the more left leaning the country is the more capital and power belongs to some of the selected few who got there not because of their merits but for being good politicians or in worse cases by simply using power and intimidation. Results are always bad.

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#193

Post by gilgongo » Sun, Oct 30, 2016, 8:21 AM UTC

jernfrost wrote: post #76

I wish more people could have Thomas Piketty's balanced view on capitalism. Too often it is treated as some sort of game where you have to pick sides whether you are for or against capitalism. Especially in America there seems to be a kneejerk reaction to any calls for regulations or moderations of the effects of the free market. Usually it is dismissed without further discussion with "look what happened in the east…

While the idea of government intervention in the free market is classically dismissed by right-wing politics, the reality of the past 40 years has been heavy intervention by US and many other Western governments.

However, unlike the forms of left-wing intervention that free-market thinkers decry, this intervention takes the form of tax breaks, bail-outs and guarantees against market failures by governments to industries and individual corporations. This has produced what's been called "socialism for the rich" in many countries, where financial institutions are free to act without fear of any consequence of negative repercussions. Just as steel mills were in Soviet Russia, or rice farmers in Mao's China.

Witness this week's apparent bailout guarantee by the UK government to Nissan, the TTIP, or the way the Japanese government behaved towards its financial sector in the 1990's.

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#194

Post by cm2187 » Sun, Oct 30, 2016, 8:37 AM UTC

jernfrost wrote: post #76

I wish more people could have Thomas Piketty's balanced view on capitalism. Too often it is treated as some sort of game where you have to pick sides whether you are for or against capitalism. Especially in America there seems to be a kneejerk reaction to any calls for regulations or moderations of the effects of the free market. Usually it is dismissed without further discussion with "look what happened in the east…

> inequality gets so bad that we get uprisings and revolutions

Poverty I think has more to do with political unstability than inequality. Having a large share of the population who cannot sustain a decent (for that time) way of life will create political tensions, not so much Paris Hilton's lifestyle.

I am much more worried about long term, mass unemployment in Europe for instance, than with the concentration of wealth of a few silicon valley billionnaires.

That's kind of the debate "no one should be rich" vs "no one should be poor". A lot of Piketty's focus is on the former where I think we should focus on the latter.

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#195

Post by aminok » Sun, Oct 30, 2016, 9:05 AM UTC

gilgongo wrote: post #193

jernfrost wrote: post #76

I wish more people could have Thomas Piketty's balanced view on capitalism. Too often it is treated as some sort of game where you have to pick sides whether you are for or against capitalism. Especially in America there seems to be a kneejerk reaction to any calls for regulations or moderations of the effects of the free market. Usually it is dismissed without further discussion with "look what happened in the east…

While the idea of government intervention in the free market is classically dismissed by right-wing politics, the reality of the past 40 years has been heavy intervention by US and many other Western governments. However, unlike the forms of left-wing intervention that free-market thinkers decry, this intervention takes the form of tax breaks, bail-outs and guarantees against market failures by governments to industr…

A tax break is not government intervention..

And no, it hasn't been all 'right-wing' intervention, though I'd certainly agree that there has been a lot of that.

There's been a ton of new 'left-wing' intervention in the form of growing welfare programs and authoritarian prohibitions on free association a la affirmative action, anti-private-discrimination laws, etc.

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#196

Post by aminok » Sun, Oct 30, 2016, 9:08 AM UTC

jernfrost wrote: post #76

I wish more people could have Thomas Piketty's balanced view on capitalism. Too often it is treated as some sort of game where you have to pick sides whether you are for or against capitalism. Especially in America there seems to be a kneejerk reaction to any calls for regulations or moderations of the effects of the free market. Usually it is dismissed without further discussion with "look what happened in the east…

I think anti-free-market ideologies like Piketty's are deeply authoritarian and violent.

What does it mean to reject the free market? It means rejecting a right of a person to 1. keep what they receive in private trade, and to 2. engage in any voluntary interaction they wish with another consenting adult, especially if it involves the exchange of currency (god forbid!).

As a corollary to this, it means prying into people's personal affairs to determine how much in income tax they owe (tax laws that profoundly violate privacy rights by forcing people to disclose how much currency they received in private trade and from what sources) and whether they engaged in prohibited voluntary interactions with other consenting adults (interactions like one person letting another stay at their home for a short-duration in exchange for an amount of currency).

In my opinion, this deeply misguided mentality that Piketty and you exhibit is responsible for billions having their human rights violated on a systematic basis, and probably a similar number of people having shorter, less fulfilling lives than they otherwise would have.

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#197

Post by ap22213 » Sun, Oct 30, 2016, 9:08 AM UTC

lliamander wrote: post #190

ap22213 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that description, it sounds like a Bogeyman [1] to me. Anyway, I live in a mostly Capitalist system, and it's also authoritarian. The only thing that seems to keep it from spiraling into complete evil is that a democratic Leviathan [2] happens to rule over it. (Of course, the capitalism is always in a constant assault for control). What's funny to me is that I have several neighbors who fervently describe themselv…

> What's funny to me is that I have several neighbors who fervently describe themselves as pro-capitalist libertarians. Yet, when I'm out of coffee or I need my driveway plowed, they do it for free. Why is that? Probably because we are all friends and have common culture and mutual trust. I don't wish to presume anything about you specifically, but I find that your neighbor's behavior only seems paradoxical to those…

Excuse my ignorance, but how can one then have a concept of property without implying the use of force?

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#198

Post by vanderZwan » Sun, Oct 30, 2016, 9:15 AM UTC

aminok wrote: post #196

jernfrost wrote: post #76

I wish more people could have Thomas Piketty's balanced view on capitalism. Too often it is treated as some sort of game where you have to pick sides whether you are for or against capitalism. Especially in America there seems to be a kneejerk reaction to any calls for regulations or moderations of the effects of the free market. Usually it is dismissed without further discussion with "look what happened in the east…

I think anti-free-market ideologies like Piketty's are deeply authoritarian and violent. What does it mean to reject the free market? It means rejecting a right of a person to 1. keep what they receive in private trade, and to 2. engage in any voluntary interaction they wish with another consenting adult, especially if it involves the exchange of currency (god forbid!). As a corollary to this, it means prying into pe…

You reject an entire line of thinking before even reading into it, because you make assumptions about what you think a few key-words mean in a particular context.

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#199

Post by vanderZwan » Sun, Oct 30, 2016, 9:18 AM UTC

aminok wrote: post #195

gilgongo wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the idea of government intervention in the free market is classically dismissed by right-wing politics, the reality of the past 40 years has been heavy intervention by US and many other Western governments. However, unlike the forms of left-wing intervention that free-market thinkers decry, this intervention takes the form of tax breaks, bail-outs and guarantees against market failures by governments to industr…

A tax break is not government intervention.. And no, it hasn't been all 'right-wing' intervention, though I'd certainly agree that there has been a lot of that. There's been a ton of new 'left-wing' intervention in the form of growing welfare programs and authoritarian prohibitions on free association a la affirmative action, anti-private-discrimination laws, etc.

When you are a sculptor, you can (among other materials) use clay or marble.

With clay, you start with nothing and fill up the space until you get the shape you desire. With marble, you start with a slab and cut out the bits until all that is left is the statue you desire.

You're claiming that only one of these two things is sculpting, and the other is not.

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#200

Post by aminok » Sun, Oct 30, 2016, 9:18 AM UTC

vanderZwan wrote: post #198

aminok wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think anti-free-market ideologies like Piketty's are deeply authoritarian and violent. What does it mean to reject the free market? It means rejecting a right of a person to 1. keep what they receive in private trade, and to 2. engage in any voluntary interaction they wish with another consenting adult, especially if it involves the exchange of currency (god forbid!). As a corollary to this, it means prying into pe…

You reject an entire line of thinking before even reading into it, because you make assumptions about what you think a few key-words mean in a particular context.

You're assuming I didn't read it. Maybe you're psychologically projecting.