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Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

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Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It just came out at an appropriate time; a year after Occupy Wall Street, etc. Inequality and inter-generational mobility is clearly on people's minds these days. Similar story happened with Nassim Taleb's Black Swan book. It's not a particularly good book -- it's rambling, hand wavy, and only ever presents anecdotal evidence as support for its claims. But the book came out at an appropriate time (right before the fi…

We need a complete top-to-bottom restructuring of our Federal Government--end welfare, end the giant socialist military system hiding within our economy. We need to audit the Fed and then probably close it down or somehow come up with sound money. We need to prosecute every banker and every entity involved in the 2008 financial crisis. That would solve 90% of what ails us. Getting the EPA off people's backs and back…

> (...some rant...) That would solve 90% of what ails us.

Somehow this reminds me of https://xkcd.com/1217/

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#162

I wish more people could have Thomas Piketty's balanced view on capitalism. Too often it is treated as some sort of game where you have to pick sides whether you are for or against capitalism. Especially in America there seems to be a kneejerk reaction to any calls for regulations or moderations of the effects of the free market. Usually it is dismissed without further discussion with "look what happened in the east…

I agree people seem to be either "the free market solves all problems" or "capitalism is slavery and must be destroyed" (but don't focus on an actual viable alternative).

I'm chipping away on my own alternative which is a bit of a hybrid. Competition and inequality between individuals but not between groups within society.

https://opensocialism.com/tldr-for-software-people is a good intro for IT people.

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All you're saying is that attempts at communism have all had major problems. That's true, but it's not enough to be conclusive. If you want to pick examples that point various ways, you can note that Cuba has corruption, lack of democracy, is an impoverished island suffering the effects of significant economic embargoes in the global system and yet still vies for having one of the best health care systems. They even…

> major problems That's a bit of an understatement. It has a pretty much 0% success rate, for both coercive and voluntary attempts. > capitalism has always had serious flaws too Yes, but nothing like the communist failures, and capitalism has had incredible success stories. > The Soviets had many orders of magnitude more losses in WWII also. Nobody doubts the heroism and sacrifice of the Red Army in WW2. That's a who…

> Nobody made the communist countries perform mass slaughter.

And communist ideas also had zero to do with those countries committing mass slaughter.

Communism, even in a very flawed form, has indeed succeeded. See Cuba. The main reason they would be wealthier with capitalism is because the U.S. would have proactive economic ties instead of working to isolate them. Given their isolation and inherent lack-of-wealth relatively speaking, communism there is at least in a state no reasonable person can describe as 0% successful, even if you have points of criticism.

In terms of kibbutzen, you do realize that the entire premise of self-suffiency, i.e. sustinance farming, is basically the definition of poverty, right? I mean, the whole premise that a small community can achieve for themselves in isolation a whole decent standard of living is nonsense. We acheive the greatest standards of living through widespread connection in larger groups on larger scales. Trade and all and specialization… No effort for tiny isolated communes could ever achieve the quality of life of large cosmopolitan economies, That issue isn't a strictly communist vs capitalist one.

Communism is indeed a simplistic model that is unworkable in a rigid dogmatic sense, just like anarchy or capitalism. There's no example of pure version of any of these ever existing.

Being closed to discussing the actual ideas of communism by just talking about Stalin's atrocities or tiny communes failing is a good way to just close yourself to actually engaging with the intellectual questions. Obviously, all philosophical / political principles are distinct from the complexity of real-world economic practice. We can still discuss the principles as a way to think about and explore the issues. Communist principles, as ideas, have nothing to do with mass slaughter.

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wealth is taxed by inflation.

Currency, and currency-denominated assets (e.g., loans) are reduced in value by inflation. Real wealth -- land, plant, equipment, labour, intellectual capital -- are not currency-denominated, and are not affected by inflation. Invest in real assets (and avoid bubbles). You're inflation-proofed.

> are not affected by inflation

But they are. Real estate taxes are based on value, which goes up with inflation. Some states (Oregon) tax all business property based on its value, which goes up with inflation. When you sell the real assets, the inflated value is taxed as "income".

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> major problems That's a bit of an understatement. It has a pretty much 0% success rate, for both coercive and voluntary attempts. > capitalism has always had serious flaws too Yes, but nothing like the communist failures, and capitalism has had incredible success stories. > The Soviets had many orders of magnitude more losses in WWII also. Nobody doubts the heroism and sacrifice of the Red Army in WW2. That's a who…

> Nobody made the communist countries perform mass slaughter. And communist ideas also had zero to do with those countries committing mass slaughter. Communism, even in a very flawed form, has indeed succeeded. See Cuba. The main reason they would be wealthier with capitalism is because the U.S. would have proactive economic ties instead of working to isolate them. Given their isolation and inherent lack-of-wealth re…

> kibbutzen..

..simply do not produce enough to sustain themselves. Capitalist farmers do, with a surplus they sell. All such voluntary collectives have collapsed (unless they get subsidies from the government).

> have nothing to do with mass slaughter

I strongly suggest reading "The Black Book of Communism". Every advocate of communism needs to read it, if only to prepare an answer.

You're right that nothing in the principles of communism suggest mass slaughter. But those who try to implement it time and again resort to it. The reason is fairly straightforward - people resist having all their property expropriated and being forced to work on collectives. The response is to kill them.

Again and again.

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#166

Serious question: How much more information do you typically retain by reading all 696 pages, versus watching a 20 minute summary? The linked webpage talks about that, saying that it needed to be condensed into a TED talk because the book scared of many people (myself included). But for all the prodigious evidence, how much do you really remember? Does any of it come up in conversation at a dinner party? > Piketty pr…

Reading the whole thing is more in the entertainment realm. He advises some things that aren't acceptable in the US like government control of CEO salaries, but also some things that aren't acceptable anywhere, like confiscatory taxes. I.e. he states that there wouldn't be government benefit to taxing the super rich so heavily they are no longer rich because there are too few of them to contribute meaningfully to large state projects, but he still states they should have confiscatory (his term) taxes applied to them just to remove their wealth so that there is less income inequality.

When people talk about the book or summarize they often stick to the more factual stuff, like the fact that income equality is real and growing, but they often skip over the other parts that no one would actually agree with like the above.

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#167
post #3

This is perfect. That book Capital is like 700 pages.

The fact that the book is a best seller when its intended audience is really people with a graduate education in economics tells me that most people bought is as a signal of smartness (or as an honest effort to inform oneself, but without actually slogging through the book)

I might come across as a uneducated plebeian (because I am), but I've recently had some similar thoughts about Shakespeare. This is not related to Capital in the 21st Century, it's just a tangent on the topic of "most people bought it as a signal of smartness."

When I was in high school, our English class slogged through The Merchant of Venice without any references or plain English translations. We just took turns reading it aloud from front to back. I understood the general plotline, but so much of it just went straight over my head. I've seen a few Shakespeare productions, but I always struggle to understand what they're talking about. I think I wasn't alone in feeling a little bit stupid and uncivilized, but I just tried to fit in anyway and pretended to enjoy it.

Then a few days ago I discovered "No Fear Shakespeare" on SparkNotes. [1] I read through the modern English version, and I am just so sad that this wasn't available to me in high school.

The Oregon Shakespeare Festival has commissioned 36 playwrights to translate all of Shakespeare’s plays into modern English [2], and I presume they will be performing those versions on stage. If you read that article on the New York Times (and the comments), the pretension and snobbery is off the charts.

I think people assume that you have to be smart to understand Shakespearean English, and therefore people who don't enjoy slogging through Shakespeare are stupid and ignorant. That's completely false, Elizabethan English is a foreign language. You can't just "pick it up" by being smart.

I'm not saying that we should forget the original Shakespeare. I understand the purists and academics who love the original language and pore over all the idioms and witticisms. But if I'm going to the theater to see an entertaining performance, I would much rather hear some lines of dialogue that I can actually understand. So I hope I can see some of those Oregon Shakespeare productions.

[1] http://nfs.sparknotes.com/merchant/page_2.html

[2] http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/07/opinion/shakespeare-in-mod...

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#168

My problem with this book is that he doesn't deal at all with the gold standard. During the timeline of his survey, the currencies were almost all gold-backed and by the end, are all fiat currencies. He completely ignores it, yet at the least he should have explained why it was not relevant.

Specie money hasn't fared any better against inflationary trends than fiat currency. It's just expressed differently, through devaluation.

You'll find a long treatment of this in Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations, which also introduces the concept that England had, effectively, three separate currency systems in simultaneous circulation: copper-based pence for retail, silver-based shillings and pounds for wholesale, and gold guineas for finance.

There's also the story of the Roman denarius, which was devalued from 90+% silver to less than 5% over the course of about 250 years.

https://dollarvigilante.com/blog/2012/02/28/the-decline-and-...

https://www.lehigh.edu/~inarcmet/papers/pense%201992.pdf

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#169

I wish more people could have Thomas Piketty's balanced view on capitalism. Too often it is treated as some sort of game where you have to pick sides whether you are for or against capitalism. Especially in America there seems to be a kneejerk reaction to any calls for regulations or moderations of the effects of the free market. Usually it is dismissed without further discussion with "look what happened in the east…

I agree people seem to be either "the free market solves all problems" or "capitalism is slavery and must be destroyed" (but don't focus on an actual viable alternative). I'm chipping away on my own alternative which is a bit of a hybrid. Competition and inequality between individuals but not between groups within society. https://opensocialism.com/tldr-for-software-people is a good intro for IT people.

I applaud the effort, and I wish more people focused on a first principles approach to fixing society as you do. But I strongly disagree with some of your claims, and stopped reading as a result:

"Software people are in a great position to design a new system"

What makes you believe this? Many people, myself included (and I write software), think software people would be poor at this. People, society and culture aren't code. Social and emotional intelligence are critical.

"We are great at being objective and not being caught up in the zealotry that is coupled with the classical systems of capitalism, communism etc."

With all due respect, are you kidding? That is very naive to say the least. To say more, it smacks of Silicon Valley arrogance and smugness, against which, as you may be aware, there is a rising distrust and backlash.

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#170
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can say the same thing about National-Socialism or any other ideology out there. There are just not enough countries to try them all on, and I am not sure why should we...

National Socialism (i.e. Hitler) was based fundamentally on nationalism and racism. We can reject it because the principles themselves are unethical. We can reject it even if it had succeeded economically! If you want to make an argument that the principles of communism are unethical, that's an independent argument from the claim that certain historic attempts had various atrocities and therefore you reject the princ…

1. My argument was about "National Socialism and any other ideology out there", you focused only on the first part. Even if you filter out unethical ones (not sure how, but let's say you can), there would still be too many to try, and not sure why should we keep trying theories instead of letting the society evolve in a natural way.

2. Specifically about giving communism a fair trial despite all past failures because it is "ethical": no thanks. I find its principle of "dictatorship of the proletariat" unethical and proven disastrous.

3. Stalin disappearing his political enemies was rooted at least in part in Lenin's cornerstone principle of "democratic centralism" which was critical ingredient for the success of the communist revolution. Trying to decouple the two doesn't do history justice.

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