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Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

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Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#91
I'm a huge fan of Piketty, and have been slogging through his terrific (but long) book and it's change my perception on a lot of things.

I don't want to challenge capitalism - competition drives innovation, and the need to survive and to make a better life for oneself is at the core of that. However, we need to admit that not all people are driven by this, and in our world (at least in the United States) it's not about survival in terms of life and death and hasn't been for some time.

The people on our streets are not there because they deserve to be, neither are many of the people in the boardrooms. Today, there's a disparity between the have and have nots and it has less to do with capitalism than the reality of growth which Piketty outlines really well in his book that's definitely changed the way that I look at it. It's hard to see value in supporting the status quo when it's only going to return 1-2% year after year - especially after an excessively long period of unprecedented growth due to the devastation and rebuilding through the 20th century. However, this results in a lot of the wrong things being valued in my opinion.

I feel like we're at a pivotal point in human history. We're at income disparity levels second only to countries scourged by ISIS, we're at wealth concentrations comparable to Europe pre-world war one. Marginal income increases have little to do with marginal productivity increases of either companies or employees. I feel like the fundamental definition of value needs to be re-evaluated.

I really think that the nature of capital/wealth have really changed. When cost of living dominates anyone's ability to be a productive member of society, that's when we should reconsider how to go about either distribution of wealth that's leading to that (that hardly ever works) or instead how we quantify and define wealth. Shifting this balance in favor of what we as a society value, I think is the best way to start to really change things.

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll see most economists advocating a consumption tax, instead. I'm not sure what the difference is between a consumption tax and a sales tax. The corporate tax should be 0%. No, I'm not kidding; hear me out. Corporations aren't people; they don't ever actually pay taxes. People pay taxes. Yes, I know corporations are legal entities, but they're owned and managed by people, somewhere down the line. Those are the pe…

found that increases in corporate tax were almost entirely born by non-management employees and consumers. This seems tautological to me. Of course increases in corporate tax are born by non-management employees and consumers. Take Management + Non-management + Customers as a group, then Management represent approximately 0% of this group. Also, Non-management + Customers aren't in a position to change the flow of mo…

You forgot the owners of the company. Presumably taxing the company would equate taxing them, which is separate from workers. But such is not how tax incidence works.

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#93

Wonderful talk. One thing he called for was a wealth tax, which is something that makes complete sense but is going to be very unpopular. On the otherhand, he also calls for progressive income taxes (something that is reported by the media and an easier pill to swallow) - in my country, Canada, progressive income taxes are not the answer IMHO. We didn't have as much inequality for education (i.e. lots of decent Unive…

I agree with you, but it is also IS income inequality. The amount of marginal income increases (or new income) is going to the top centile and decile and is not proportional at all to the distribution of either income or wealth.

" The average income for the richest 1 percent of Americans, excluding capital gains, rose from $871,100 in 2009 to $968,000 from 2012-13, he wrote. The 99 percent, on the other hand, experienced a drop in average incomes from $44,000 to $43,900, Wolfers said. The calculation excludes government benefits in the form of Social Security, welfare, tax credits, food stamps and so on. "

From http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/apr/...

However, the research in Piketty's book also shows this up through 2010, and I remember the figures he was drafting showing 50% of new income going to the top decile going through 2010 - so Bernie might be a bit aggressive in his numbers, but even 50% of new income going to 10% of the population is just bad. I remember in the book he outlined how only places like Colombia or otherwise Fascist regime countries are worse than the US.

I can dig up the numbers from the book - I read it on ebook so it's always a hassle waiting for the pages to refresh looking for info :/

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#94

In the interest of giving the fuller discussion: Picketty's book has been out for a while now. It is good economics. It deserves rightful praise, and scrutiny. Acemoglu and Robinson's answer[1] is also good economics. Digestible podcast form here [2]. It purports that Picketty's "r>g" model is flawed. It also deserves a reading. All of this is part of a larger discussion, which C21 started. r > g doesn't seem to expl…

I wonder whether it is considered good or bad behaviour to point out incorrect spelling, but it is Piketty, not Picketty

This is the second time it's been pointed to me this month and I'm incorrigible.

Piketty looks weird to me because I pronounce it "Pike-etty" instead of "pique-etty" in my head.

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#95

I wish more people could have Thomas Piketty's balanced view on capitalism. Too often it is treated as some sort of game where you have to pick sides whether you are for or against capitalism. Especially in America there seems to be a kneejerk reaction to any calls for regulations or moderations of the effects of the free market. Usually it is dismissed without further discussion with "look what happened in the east…

Communism isn't some "radical" boogeyman, it's just a process to eliminate inequality. (Why should there be any inequality at all?) We don't need to be diminutive about relatively different ideas; that's unhelpful at best.

Yeah, tell that to the millions of dead left in its wake.

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#96

I wish more people could have Thomas Piketty's balanced view on capitalism. Too often it is treated as some sort of game where you have to pick sides whether you are for or against capitalism. Especially in America there seems to be a kneejerk reaction to any calls for regulations or moderations of the effects of the free market. Usually it is dismissed without further discussion with "look what happened in the east…

You sound like a rambling fool. For starters, no one alive today has even experienced capitalism. What we have in the US is a joke, a complete, miserable joke. It's a system to transfer wealth to the top while avoiding any real accountability for that act. So don't get all righteous like you know anything about regulation or any of it.

You can keep your communism, too. Bunch of murderous idiots is all they ever are.

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#97
post #93

Wonderful talk. One thing he called for was a wealth tax, which is something that makes complete sense but is going to be very unpopular. On the otherhand, he also calls for progressive income taxes (something that is reported by the media and an easier pill to swallow) - in my country, Canada, progressive income taxes are not the answer IMHO. We didn't have as much inequality for education (i.e. lots of decent Unive…

I agree with you, but it is also IS income inequality. The amount of marginal income increases (or new income) is going to the top centile and decile and is not proportional at all to the distribution of either income or wealth. " The average income for the richest 1 percent of Americans, excluding capital gains, rose from $871,100 in 2009 to $968,000 from 2012-13, he wrote. The 99 percent, on the other hand, experie…

The answer to that isn't more taxes and regulations. Government has completely failed us. The answer is for the people to get off their butts and do something about the problem.

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

found that increases in corporate tax were almost entirely born by non-management employees and consumers. This seems tautological to me. Of course increases in corporate tax are born by non-management employees and consumers. Take Management + Non-management + Customers as a group, then Management represent approximately 0% of this group. Also, Non-management + Customers aren't in a position to change the flow of mo…

You forgot the owners of the company. Presumably taxing the company would equate taxing them, which is separate from workers. But such is not how tax incidence works.

Indeed, yes. The owners are in the best position to avoid paying more tax.

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#99
post #91

I'm a huge fan of Piketty, and have been slogging through his terrific (but long) book and it's change my perception on a lot of things. I don't want to challenge capitalism - competition drives innovation, and the need to survive and to make a better life for oneself is at the core of that. However, we need to admit that not all people are driven by this, and in our world (at least in the United States) it's not abo…

All that you said is right--we have allowed a monster to grow. And killing that monster is going to require sacrifice now. It never comes any other way.

Re: Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, in 20 minutes (2014) [video]

#100
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, but it is also IS income inequality. The amount of marginal income increases (or new income) is going to the top centile and decile and is not proportional at all to the distribution of either income or wealth. " The average income for the richest 1 percent of Americans, excluding capital gains, rose from $871,100 in 2009 to $968,000 from 2012-13, he wrote. The 99 percent, on the other hand, experie…

The answer to that isn't more taxes and regulations. Government has completely failed us. The answer is for the people to get off their butts and do something about the problem.

Agreed - something fundamental really needs to change. I'm most worried that it'll come as a result of this election to some degree. I don't think people are supporting Trump because they like him, but I think that they've almost got no choice but someone that might (even if totally by accident) blow up the system. I think this will be totally nuts, but then again - if he loses I fear things may get violent.
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