Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

General questions about the Airbnb Community Commitment

airbnb.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 196 posts

Re: General questions about the Airbnb Community Commitment

#171

Post by foldr »

jacquesm wrote: post #170
foldr wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Really, when it comes to the likes of Airbnb, Uber, Facebook and so on I've over time come to realize that they are deeply un-ethical companies that couldn't care less about what the 'right' thing to do is, they just want to maintain their leadership position and to make as much money as possible. Ethics mean nothing to them. Right, so you have no specific knowledge of what is going on here. You just have a general…

> Right, so you have no specific knowledge of what is going on here. You just have a general policy of assuming the worst. Aka cynicism. It's cynicism when applied to companies about which you have no datapoints, we have plenty of datapoints about those three mentioned above. Airbnb would have to significantly change their ways before I would be ready to see them as an ethical operator, I've outlined two things they…

We don’t have any data points about why they made this decision. I’m sorry, but your argument basically amounts to saying “Airbnb is a big evil corporation, therefore everything it does is evil”. We simply don’t know what motivations the individuals who made this decision had.

I looked through your recent comments but couldn’t see any practical suggestions. Forcing hosts to accept all bookings would prevent legitimate instances of discrimination. (There are plenty of legitimate reasons why you may not want to rent your room to a particular person. Reasons based on their gender, nationality, race, etc. are of course not among these.)

Re: General questions about the Airbnb Community Commitment

#172

Post by BrandonM »

hannob wrote: post #97
tomohawk wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not the problem. The problem is that Airbnb is making demands on what people do or don't do with their own homes far beyond providing bed and/or breakfast. They're making demands about how people think. My head is not their property. My home is not their property. It's improper and intolerant of them to make these kinds of demands. In fact, it's a form of totalitarianism to not do business with anyone who doe…

What's wrong with that? You don't have to use their service. They are not in a situation that they have to provide service to everyone. I don't see a problem when a company says "if you're a racist you're not allowed to use our service".

It's easy to close your ears and say "racist". Here's what AirBnB's new policy says:

> I agree to treat everyone in the Airbnb community—regardless of their race, religion, national origin, ethnicity, disability, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, or age—with respect, and without judgment or bias.

This requirement cuts both ways. A woman who fears rape cannot prevent a young man from staying in her apartment. A Jew or black must accept someone into their home who looks like a skinhead. Someone from the Ukraine must allow a Russian to stay with them, even in spite of the ongoing conflicts. A host living in a 3rd floor walk-up must allow a guest in a wheelchair.

I would never have a reason to refuse someone for these reasons, but that in itself is a privileged position to be in. This policy doesn't only protect the vulnerable; it also puts the vulnerable at risk.

Re: General questions about the Airbnb Community Commitment

#173

Post by jacquesm »

foldr wrote: post #171
jacquesm wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Right, so you have no specific knowledge of what is going on here. You just have a general policy of assuming the worst. Aka cynicism. It's cynicism when applied to companies about which you have no datapoints, we have plenty of datapoints about those three mentioned above. Airbnb would have to significantly change their ways before I would be ready to see them as an ethical operator, I've outlined two things they…

We don’t have any data points about why they made this decision. I’m sorry, but your argument basically amounts to saying “Airbnb is a big evil corporation, therefore everything it does is evil”. We simply don’t know what motivations the individuals who made this decision had. I looked through your recent comments but couldn’t see any practical suggestions. Forcing hosts to accept all bookings would prevent legitimat…

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12824223

It's pretty common for women not to want to rent out their room to men, the new policy would make that impossible.

People make their decisions about who to leave their private property, their home and the bed they sleep in based on their own personal criteria, being allowed to do so is a plus, not a minus. If that also enables racism then you could argue the model is broken but not that 'racism is such a large problem that we will now also stop people from having control over who gets to stay in their property'.

Re: General questions about the Airbnb Community Commitment

#174

Post by foldr »

jacquesm wrote: post #173
foldr wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don’t have any data points about why they made this decision. I’m sorry, but your argument basically amounts to saying “Airbnb is a big evil corporation, therefore everything it does is evil”. We simply don’t know what motivations the individuals who made this decision had. I looked through your recent comments but couldn’t see any practical suggestions. Forcing hosts to accept all bookings would prevent legitimat…

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12824223 It's pretty common for women not to want to rent out their room to men, the new policy would make that impossible. People make their decisions about who to leave their private property, their home and the bed they sleep in based on their own personal criteria, being allowed to do so is a plus, not a minus. If that also enables racism then you could argue the model is brok…

So when it comes down to it, you’d actually like Airbnb to be doing less than they are currently doing to combat racial discrimination!

If you are upset with Airbnb because you’re in favor of hosts being allowed to racially discriminate, you could have saved a lot of confusion by just saying so.

For my part, I think that you very obviously can argue that racism is such a large problem that it’s appropriate for Airbnb to exercise some element of control over the host’s decision making process. That is the argument that many people have been making, and Airbnb appears to have accepted the argument.

By the way, it is very unclear from your range of posts what you actually want Airbnb to do. In some places you appear to be suggesting that Airbnb should exercise more control over hosts that they are at present (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12824223). But here you seem to be complaining that they are attempting to exert any degree of control whatsoever.

Re: General questions about the Airbnb Community Commitment

#175

Post by toomuchtodo »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #120
Lucadg wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no because that would make it a racial discrimination. Ours was more a cultural one.

That's what the racists think too, here in the U.S. anyway. They think they are just not okay with the "culture" of the people they are racist against.

Can I not be okay with someone's culture without being racist?

I don't hate or discriminate against Indians, but I despise how they view and treat women in their culture.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-37735370

Re: General questions about the Airbnb Community Commitment

#176

Post by jacquesm »

foldr wrote: post #174
jacquesm wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12824223 It's pretty common for women not to want to rent out their room to men, the new policy would make that impossible. People make their decisions about who to leave their private property, their home and the bed they sleep in based on their own personal criteria, being allowed to do so is a plus, not a minus. If that also enables racism then you could argue the model is brok…

So when it comes down to it, you’d actually like Airbnb to be doing less than they are currently doing to combat racial discrimination! If you are upset with Airbnb because you’re in favor of hosts being allowed to racially discriminate, you could have saved a lot of confusion by just saying so. For my part, I think that you very obviously can argue that racism is such a large problem that it’s appropriate for Airbnb…

Either Airbnb should leave the decision of who to accept in the hands of their hosts or Airbnb should force their hosts to accept everybody so that hosts know exactly where they stand with respect to control over who is allowed to stay in their houses and sleep in their beds.

A 'middle ground' is nothing but a fig-leaf.

See, no inconsistency, both solutions are going to be clear for all users and hosts. In the first case some discrimination may happen and that will likely get Airbnb in trouble with the authorities in some places and may give them bad press in others, or they can take the moral high ground and really accept everybody without making any illusions about who is in control of the premises.

Anything in between is simply window dressing and will not change the situation in a significant way.

Anyway, I feel like I'm repeating myself so I'll leave it at that.

Re: General questions about the Airbnb Community Commitment

#177

Post by foldr »

jacquesm wrote: post #176
foldr wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So when it comes down to it, you’d actually like Airbnb to be doing less than they are currently doing to combat racial discrimination! If you are upset with Airbnb because you’re in favor of hosts being allowed to racially discriminate, you could have saved a lot of confusion by just saying so. For my part, I think that you very obviously can argue that racism is such a large problem that it’s appropriate for Airbnb…

Either Airbnb should leave the decision of who to accept in the hands of their hosts or Airbnb should force their hosts to accept everybody so that hosts know exactly where they stand with respect to control over who is allowed to stay in their houses and sleep in their beds. A 'middle ground' is nothing but a fig-leaf. See, no inconsistency, both solutions are going to be clear for all users and hosts. In the first…

Hosts already know where they stand, the policy is pretty clear.

I don't really understand your reasons for objecting to a middle ground, or why you are so convinced that you know Airbnb's precise motivations for going this route, so I guess we'll leave it at that.

But I'd also like to point out that if the middle ground is just "window dressing" and "won't change anything", and if you were ok with the previous situation where hosts could discriminate for any reason (possibly limited by the law in some instances), then there is really no reason to object, since your own position is that everything will continue on exactly as it did before this policy was put in place!

Re: General questions about the Airbnb Community Commitment

#178

Post by hunter2_ »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #175
jrochkind1 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what the racists think too, here in the U.S. anyway. They think they are just not okay with the "culture" of the people they are racist against.

Can I not be okay with someone's culture without being racist? I don't hate or discriminate against Indians, but I despise how they view and treat women in their culture. http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-37735370

And what about the people who have distanced themselves from that culture (if they even experienced it at all) but are still that race? You can differentiate based on the actions and ideas because those are under the person's control for the most part, and not by protected categories because those are not. Despise the people who treat women that way, which might happen to be statistically applicable to a race, but not the race wholesale.

Re: General questions about the Airbnb Community Commitment

#179

Post by hunter2_ »

hannob wrote: post #99
Lucadg wrote: post #42

I used to work in a camping site in Northern Italy many years ago. We were openly told not to accept people from the south of Italy as they statistically were more noisy. I didn't like it but it actually made sense. It just wasn't viable to mix Germans and Napoleteans in a tight space. I guess Germans earned that right with politness. Then one day I let gipsies in and I almost got fired.

What would make sense is to say "we only accept campers that are quiet at night - and we'll throw them out of they don't comply and disturb other people's sleep". What you did is racism. Now ever if your statistics were true (I doubt you properly measured that) it simply doesn't matter. Even if 90% of people from some region are noisy at night that doesn't justify rejecting the other 10%.

I am on your side, but to play the devil's advocate, this is a case in which a way to predict loudness before they get loud is required. Is there a way to do this effectively without dipping into protected categories? Nobody wears 2am loudness on their forehead when checking in at 4pm.
Post reply on HN