Why It Took So Long to Invent the Wheel (2012) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why It Took So Long to Invent the Wheel (2012)

#51

Post by jbpetersen » Sat, Oct 29, 2016, 3:06 PM UTC

Houshalter wrote: post #32

One of the most fascinating books I ever picked up from the library was Ancient Inventions ( https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Inventions-Peter-James/dp/034... ), which goes over the details of stuff like this. The historical figure that strikes me as "most likely to be a time traveller" is Archimedes, who designed incredibly advanced machines that destroyed the Roman fleet and protected his home city. Sadly he was acci…

> Sometimes I wonder if the greatest inventor of our time might be applying his work to video game engines.

John Carmack?

Re: Why It Took So Long to Invent the Wheel (2012)

#52

Post by jbpetersen » Sat, Oct 29, 2016, 3:09 PM UTC

Razengan wrote: post #36

Is there any realistically conceivable alternate-history/universe where cable-suspended wheel-less trams (like [1][2][3] but closer to ground level) became the dominant method of transportation instead of huge roads and cars? It's something I've been musing on to incorporate into some fiction, inspired by all the recent news and discussions about self-driving cars and the prospect of shared fleets. [1] https://en.wik…

Try http://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/

Re: Why It Took So Long to Invent the Wheel (2012)

#53

Post by jacquesm » Sat, Oct 29, 2016, 3:10 PM UTC

Houshalter wrote: post #32

One of the most fascinating books I ever picked up from the library was Ancient Inventions ( https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Inventions-Peter-James/dp/034... ), which goes over the details of stuff like this. The historical figure that strikes me as "most likely to be a time traveller" is Archimedes, who designed incredibly advanced machines that destroyed the Roman fleet and protected his home city. Sadly he was acci…

The Chinese may have had primitive steam engines before Heron of Alexandria:

http://tellmewhyfacts.com/First-Steam-Engine-James-Watt

That doesn't diminish Heron of Alexandria's accomplishments in any way, I highly doubt it was anything else than either an original invention or an independent re-invention.

Super interesting historical figure, right up there with Archimedes and Leonardo da Vinci.

Re: Why It Took So Long to Invent the Wheel (2012)

#54

Post by dleslie » Sat, Oct 29, 2016, 3:11 PM UTC

Houshalter wrote: post #32

One of the most fascinating books I ever picked up from the library was Ancient Inventions ( https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Inventions-Peter-James/dp/034... ), which goes over the details of stuff like this. The historical figure that strikes me as "most likely to be a time traveller" is Archimedes, who designed incredibly advanced machines that destroyed the Roman fleet and protected his home city. Sadly he was acci…

Entertainment is fertile soil for creative invention; it is often an environment which eschews rigid, pattern-based development in favor of creative expression.

I've spent a fair amount of time in video game development and in enterprise software; without a doubt, my experience reflects that creative developers are drawn to video games, whereas the few that found their way elsewhere have a sense of being exotic caged animals.

Re: Why It Took So Long to Invent the Wheel (2012)

#55

Post by tpeo » Sat, Oct 29, 2016, 3:11 PM UTC

danbruc wrote: post #4

I heard the story differently. Wheels are only really useful if you have good enough streets to use them on and building streets is a huge upfront investment. It is also a chicken egg problem - wheels are only useful with streets and streets are only useful for wheels. Without streets you are better of carrying your stuff around than trying to push it around on wheels in natural terrain. That is also why the wheel fi…

Streets and roads aren't useful only for wheels. Try taking a mile-long walk through a (seemingly) flat field and through a paved surface as an experiment.

The first one will be much bumpier and tiresome than the second for any given speed, and you'll be at a higher risk of injury due to careless step. And the benefit of having a flat surface is greater the more rugged is the terrain that must be crossed. This is why, though the Incas didn't use the wheel, they had roads nonetheless. And the Romans, too, built their own roads mainly for the speedier movement of their armies while on the march.

Re: Why It Took So Long to Invent the Wheel (2012)

#56

Post by kartan » Sat, Oct 29, 2016, 3:11 PM UTC

Houshalter wrote: post #32

One of the most fascinating books I ever picked up from the library was Ancient Inventions ( https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Inventions-Peter-James/dp/034... ), which goes over the details of stuff like this. The historical figure that strikes me as "most likely to be a time traveller" is Archimedes, who designed incredibly advanced machines that destroyed the Roman fleet and protected his home city. Sadly he was acci…

> Unfortunately almost all his inventions were for entertainment value only.

I read somewhere that one of the problems in antiquity to develop useful machines was the abundance of slave/captive labor. Why do you want to create a complicated inefficient first version of a machine when you have cheap humans being to do the task?

Re: Why It Took So Long to Invent the Wheel (2012)

#57

Post by api » Sat, Oct 29, 2016, 3:21 PM UTC

Houshalter wrote: post #32

One of the most fascinating books I ever picked up from the library was Ancient Inventions ( https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Inventions-Peter-James/dp/034... ), which goes over the details of stuff like this. The historical figure that strikes me as "most likely to be a time traveller" is Archimedes, who designed incredibly advanced machines that destroyed the Roman fleet and protected his home city. Sadly he was acci…

It makes perfect sense that they'd be novelties. Play is creative. It's really harmful to science that it's become so institutional and bureaucratic.

Re: Why It Took So Long to Invent the Wheel (2012)

#58

Post by Houshalter » Sat, Oct 29, 2016, 3:22 PM UTC

kartan wrote: post #56

Houshalter wrote: post #32

One of the most fascinating books I ever picked up from the library was Ancient Inventions ( https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Inventions-Peter-James/dp/034... ), which goes over the details of stuff like this. The historical figure that strikes me as "most likely to be a time traveller" is Archimedes, who designed incredibly advanced machines that destroyed the Roman fleet and protected his home city. Sadly he was acci…

> Unfortunately almost all his inventions were for entertainment value only. I read somewhere that one of the problems in antiquity to develop useful machines was the abundance of slave/captive labor. Why do you want to create a complicated inefficient first version of a machine when you have cheap humans being to do the task?

Yes that's probably why the industrial revolution didn't happen. There's a good comment below that explains other societal reasons why the industrial revolution didn't happen, like the lack of contract law and investors.

I also read a great theory once (but I can't find it again through google!) that the industrial revolution really required the invention of the cannon first. Building an efficient steam engine in roman times would have been incredibly expensive and dangerous, because of their primitive metal technology. The cannon created a tech race between nations to develop more/better/cheaper/lighter cannons. Which resulted in better metal working tech. Once you can make big pieces of metal that can withstand and direct the pressure created from explosions, steam engines aren't too far away.

But Heron's invention was still useful, and would have been the fastest moving thing ever built up to that time. Perhaps it could have been adapted to military applications, like flinging tons of rocks really fast at high speed?

Re: Why It Took So Long to Invent the Wheel (2012)

#59

Post by pavel_lishin » Sat, Oct 29, 2016, 3:24 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #22

KineticLensman wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "what would I try to invent?" question one is fascinating. If I found myself transported back to Roman times, I'd aim to make a lens. The Romans had glass so the raw material is there. With a lens you can fairly quickly go a telescope, which has immediate military application, so would perhaps be widely adopted. Astronomy might then follow, heading off the whole "Earth is the centre of Universe" thing that held b…

>heading off the whole "Earth is the centre of Universe" thing that held back modern thinking // How do you think that held us back? Do you think heliocentrism, which is similarly wrong, has/is holding us back?

It was a fundamental break-through. We were no longer at the center of the conceptual Universe. Whether that something is the Sun, the center of the Milky Way, or doesn't actually exist in space, doesn't matter as much as the initial realization.

Re: Why It Took So Long to Invent the Wheel (2012)

#60

Post by njharman » Sat, Oct 29, 2016, 3:25 PM UTC

KineticLensman wrote: post #10

probably_wrong wrote: post #2

I often like to fantasize how would I fare if I found myself suddenly transported into medieval times or earlier (spoiler: poorly). Articles like this make me appreciate even more how little difference there is between us and humans thousands of years ago. I wouldn't have figured out how to make a working wheel, and I've seen one. I have no idea where I picked up the idea that "ancient civilizations were dumb", but t…

The "what would I try to invent?" question one is fascinating. If I found myself transported back to Roman times, I'd aim to make a lens. The Romans had glass so the raw material is there. With a lens you can fairly quickly go a telescope, which has immediate military application, so would perhaps be widely adopted. Astronomy might then follow, heading off the whole "Earth is the centre of Universe" thing that held b…

Bicycles. Food preservation. Sanitation / boiling water.

Roman legions mounted in bikes could be everywhere. Their roads already were a force multiplier. Combined with being able to feed them and have them not die of disease simple wounds. We'd all be speaking Latin.

We all know, Rome is center of the universe. :)