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Powerwall 2 and Integrated Solar

powerwall.tesla.com

261–270 of 341 posts

Re: Powerwall 2 and Integrated Solar

#261
post #143

Solar panel roofing tiles have been around for a long time. I wonder what this will do different? Pricing? Or perhaps they are relying on brand strength alone. Edit: I understand the urge to downvote because I'm not singing praise, but I promise I'm not trying to be overly pessimistic or critical of what Tesla is doing. Fact of the matter is, solar tiles have been done before, and failed miserably.

Marketing and business model, primarily. Previous solar tiles were more expensive than conventional solar and so are these. The difference here is that Tesla and SolarCity are marketing it as no more expensive upfront than a conventional roof replacement by keeping ownership of the roof and having buyers sign a contract committing them to buying power from it at ever-increasing prices. There also seems to be some eff…

> Marketing and business model, primarily.

And from that, hopefully, scale. Solar tiles have always seemed to be a very poor relation of solar panels. The approximately 1x1.5m panel is a sort of informal global standard, and that's meant that solar tiles have been much more fragmented, much lower scale, and much more expensive.

On the other hand in theory these solar integrated building materials should greatly reduce the associated costs of installing panels - labour is usually something like half the cost of installing rooftop solar, but if you can install a solar roof without much more effort than a normal roof, those extra labour costs are massively reduced.

If you can leverage this labour cost advantage to ramp up scale of the tiles, and get them close to the per watt cost of traditional panels, this is how you can really make rooftop solar competitive. These labour costs are why rooftop solar is so much more expensive than utility solar. If you can greatly reduce them, total costs are much more tied to the cost of the tiles themselves, the inverter, and so on, where there is enormous leeway for ongoing reductions. Very exciting.

Re: Powerwall 2 and Integrated Solar

#262
post #118

Quick question for the people living in the US (Target customers of the Powerwall). What is your yearly power usage? On the website[0] they put for sizing 10kWh/day/BR. Which means 14600kWh/year for a 4 bedroom house. Here in Germany, working from home with a 4BR+office house, we are using 2550kWh/year. So, I suppose the Tesla sizing is to support a "peak day" usage, but still, I am surprised by the calculations. Thi…

I'm in the US (suburbs near NYC) and over the past 12 months we've used 15714 kWh. 5 bedroom house built in the 1950s. With all my electronic toys, our love of air conditioning in the unbearable NY summers, and the tendency for nobody to pay any attention to turning things off, I'm almost surprised it's not higher. Also, we have a Nissan Leaf (electric car) which is responsible for 2500-3000 of that usage. Total electric bills for the past year comes to $2885. I don't think we get enough light here for solar to be worth it, but occasionally I think about it.

Re: Powerwall 2 and Integrated Solar

#263
post #258
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's no wonder that the EU has half co2 emission per capita than US, given the inefficiencies in US power consumption, cars etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di...

A lot of it has to do with geography. Europe is quite a bit further north, and doesn't experience some of the heat that the US does. It always helps me to remember that Rome is further north than New York.

But many parts of Europe need heating instead of AC. I think it has more to do with house sizes. More Europeans live in cities compared to US and thus have on average smaller apartments/houses. Also there might be cultural values in the play, at least central and nordic countries are traditionally quite efficiency oriented.

Re: Powerwall 2 and Integrated Solar

#264

the cool thing is that they look good... they look like a normal roof at the angle you would see from the street in front of the house, but from above... from the angle of the sun they are transparent and you can see the solar cells. I know some rich people that want solar but their neighborhood associations won't allow it, but I don't think they would not have an objection to these roofs. they look really nice.... I…

> they would not have an objection to these roofs

Unless the HOA rules have a stipulation about your roof shingles exactly matching the other roofs in the neighborhood, which is common. And boring a shit to look at. I hate HOAs so much.

If all they did was protect property values by keeping people from doing outrageous things, I might be okay with them, but they go way beyond that to the point where it diminishes the value of buying property (since you can't adapt it as you see fit). Municipal codes usually take care of the worst behavior, anyhow. Which is why if I ever buy land and/or a house, it will be in a more rural area. Then I can put a damn Tesla solar roof on it, build a shed with a different roof and paint it all purple with green stripes if I feel like it.

Re: Powerwall 2 and Integrated Solar

#265
post #118

Quick question for the people living in the US (Target customers of the Powerwall). What is your yearly power usage? On the website[0] they put for sizing 10kWh/day/BR. Which means 14600kWh/year for a 4 bedroom house. Here in Germany, working from home with a 4BR+office house, we are using 2550kWh/year. So, I suppose the Tesla sizing is to support a "peak day" usage, but still, I am surprised by the calculations. Thi…

14,130 kWh for a 4000 sq ft 4 bed in Boston over the last 12 months for a 150 year old house. It looks like AC is a large portion of that. Thankfully, we use gas for heat and cooking.

Re: Powerwall 2 and Integrated Solar

#266
post #209
post #75

I haven't looked into it yet, but I'm curious about using utilizing my Teslas in case of emergency for power. With 75kwh+ each (leased so no concern about cycles) I don't think I'd need a powerwall at home.

Can you explain to me your economic thinking behind leasing two Teslas? Are you super rich or do you have some other thinking that went into that decision?

It's actually not a bad financial decision at all relative to other cars. Reasonably specced Model S montly lease costs after tax benefits come out to well under $1000/month. That's on par with a mid-high spec E-class or 5-series. Now factor in fuel savings and small business lease write off. Plus access to carpool lanes during peak hours and prime parkin spots.

Re: Powerwall 2 and Integrated Solar

#267
post #118

Quick question for the people living in the US (Target customers of the Powerwall). What is your yearly power usage? On the website[0] they put for sizing 10kWh/day/BR. Which means 14600kWh/year for a 4 bedroom house. Here in Germany, working from home with a 4BR+office house, we are using 2550kWh/year. So, I suppose the Tesla sizing is to support a "peak day" usage, but still, I am surprised by the calculations. Thi…

Just to add more anecdata: * 150-year-old rowhome in central Pennsylvania, USA. * 2 adults, 2 small children, dog/cat. * Window unit air conditioners (2 running most of the time in summer, with a 3rd in the attic office running a lot less since I don't use it much). Hoping to install mini-split system eventually, but it's low priority * Gas steam heat * Gas stove/oven * Gas water heater (I think) * Electric baseboard…

I've got an 80-year-old row house in Queens, NY. Family of 4, no pets.

Our electricity usage is well below yours. We don't make a huge effort to conserve, and I don't believe our house is particularly well insulated. We have no special energy tech, unless you count the LED lights. We have a lot of electronic gizmos sipping away at any given time.

Winter: we don't have the baseboard heaters, but I work from home most days and have an infrared heater pointed at my desk for a good 8 hrs or so each day.

Summer: my wife hates A/C when she sleeps, so we only have one air-conditioned room at night (me and 1 kid in the room w/ A/C, wife and other kid in the other). No pets, so we leave the A/C off when we're out, it comes back on (by timer) about an hour before we get home. So big difference in summer.

Still, that doesn't sem to account for all of the difference. I just checked my con-ed history online. Some typical usage numbers:

  Feb: 310 kWh  
  Apr: 240 kWh
  Jul: 410 kWh
  Sep: 270 kWh
We spend anywhere from $80-$350 a month for electricity. Maybe there's a big difference between an 80-year-old row and a 150-year-old row?

We have

- 3 window A/C units.

- 3 routers, running 24/7

- 2 servers (mostly used as NAS), running 24/7

- FireTV, a few sonos devices, drawing a bit 24/7

- Many lights, mostly LED. We're pretty good about turning them off.

- ~10-15 phones/kindles/laptops/tablets/gizmos constantly being topped off

- Gas for stove, water, and household heating

EDIT: After reading more discussion below, I thought maybe I'd made a mistake, since there is a difference between our usage and most of the other US folks. I double checked, and the numbers are right. Our total usage for the last 12 months is 4340 kWh. We were gone for a few weeks in the summer, else it would have been a bit higher.

Re: Powerwall 2 and Integrated Solar

#268
post #209
post #75

I haven't looked into it yet, but I'm curious about using utilizing my Teslas in case of emergency for power. With 75kwh+ each (leased so no concern about cycles) I don't think I'd need a powerwall at home.

Can you explain to me your economic thinking behind leasing two Teslas? Are you super rich or do you have some other thinking that went into that decision?

I am self-employed/own a company. They are basically business leases so written off nearly 100%.

Re: Powerwall 2 and Integrated Solar

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which still ties you to the 'grid' insofar as you need the natgas supply chain, even if you have a huge reservoir you'll eventually run out. Having said that, batteries and solar panels don't have an unlimited life span either. I'm looking at buying a petrol powered generator for reasons other than home power generation, but it will be reassuring to know we have backup power at home, but I don't think I'm allowed to…

Good points. But for me, I live on 80 acres and it happens that the county natural gas pipeline runs under it. The easement (signed in the 60's) included the right to connect to the pipeline at will. When we built the house, we exercised that right. So even though I am rural, I don't have to buy liquid propane to heat my house. I'm tapped into a 100,000 home supply line. Its been depressurized maybe twice for mainten…

Nice setup! How much did connecting to the pipeline cost? Making an individual connection to something so large sounds expensive, but obviously I have no actual clue.

Re: Powerwall 2 and Integrated Solar

#270
post #118

Quick question for the people living in the US (Target customers of the Powerwall). What is your yearly power usage? On the website[0] they put for sizing 10kWh/day/BR. Which means 14600kWh/year for a 4 bedroom house. Here in Germany, working from home with a 4BR+office house, we are using 2550kWh/year. So, I suppose the Tesla sizing is to support a "peak day" usage, but still, I am surprised by the calculations. Thi…

Spain, 4BR/200m2 house, roughly 5.500KWh/year. No A/C, heating used pretty much only in winter.
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